Have you seen this form before?

[Scimitar]

Hey guys,

I was wondering if anyone here has any information on the set being performed in the following clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQgLGAtKc8g

This is from the late 1970s movie Shaolin Temple/Death Chambers.

Reason I ask is that I learned this form about 15 years ago and was told second hand from a senior classmate that it was named "Ten Killing Hands". However based on what I've read from this and other forums, few lineages have an actual set with this name (Sup Seut Sau or Sup Duk Sau from Chiu Wai have been mentioned, for example), but those forms sound much different from the one I know.

What you see in the clip is followed by a series of reverse and sun punches to either side, and then several tiger movements. Then from the clip you see a kick and a step back, and this leads into the same ending sequence from fu hok and sup ying.

I'm no longer in contact with the group that I learned this set from, and I've never seen it performed anywhere else. Has anyone ever seen this one before or perhaps know it as a different name?

Or, for anyone who actually knows the Chiu Wai lineage sets, are there any similarities with this clip? Having no further information on it, I was surprised when I first saw the set being performed in this movie.

It's not outside the realm of possibility that the set I know was pieced together based on this film, as there was at least one other form practiced by the group that they called a set, but was in reality just a few drills chained together to aid in teaching beginners. However, our "Ten Killing Hands" was only taught after gung gee. It has the same flavor but doesn't really offer anything that isn't found in the core forms.

Anyways, just curious and not expecting much. Any thoughts or insight would be appreciated.

-Dana

[hasayfu]

I don't know the Chiu's ten killing hands set but I have seen it a couple times. It does have the flavor of the set in the movie. I specifcally remember the snake sequence to the side and the water fists at the end.

I don't remember it starting with the tiger crane sequence nor do I remember how it ended.

This is set (sup suet sao) was created by SiGung Chiu Wai and used as a beginners set. He also created another set (sup Duk Sao) that is a more advanced set. I have never seen that set.

[Scimitar]

HSF,

Thanks very much for the response. I've been trying to find info on this set for a long time. I've no way of knowing for certain if the rest of the set is the same, but that's more info than I had before, and the possibility is very interesting.

Much appreciated,
-Dana

[hasayfu]

You are in luck. I just happen to find this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqbp6azO9bE

It was a weird path that led me here but as I'm watching this interview, Chi Kuan Chun says he is a student of Chiu Wai AND he stars in Shaolin Temple, the clip you showed.

So there is a definite link with that movie and the Chiu family. Still no closer to telling you what the set is but at least there is a plausible connection.

[Drno63]

A lot of times the forms they show in movies are "created" just for the movie and maybe no such form exists. They are usually a combination of different forms or movements so it looks good on film. This is from what I have observed from a lot of films. So the form from the clip could be something the martial arts director cooked up for the movie?

[Scimitar]

HSF,

Thanks for the interview link!

Drno63,

Your idea is entirely plausible. All of this is really speculation though and we may never know how this form was brought about. We're still not entirely sure that we're speaking about the same form! Nevertheless, it's quite interesting to me to discover any bits of history at all on a set I've known for over a decade.

Regardless of origin, it's still one of my favorite short sets.

Thanks again guys

[Drno63]

You are welcome. Yes that was just my thought on the form. I once read an article (interview) on Chi Kuan chun. He did mentioned his favorite form was the 5 animals and 5 elements and the 5th son 8 diagram staff was his favorite weapon form. That's why in his movies he always used moves from that form, besides all the animals and elements looked good on screen.

[FrankyLau]

Hello,

this is a choreographed form for the movie from my Sigung Lau Kar Leung..my sigung was the teacher for the shaw brothers actors and also martial arts director for all the early shaolin movies.

[jing]

I don't know the Chiu's ten killing hands set but I have seen it a couple times. It does have the flavor of the set in the movie. I specifcally remember the snake sequence to the side and the water fists at the end.

I don't remember it starting with the tiger crane sequence nor do I remember how it ended.

This is set (sup suet sao) was created by SiGung Chiu Wai and used as a beginners set. He also created another set (sup Duk Sao) that is a more advanced set. I have never seen that set.

Hello Hasayfu ,

I did ' nt know that Sigung Chiu Wai had created the Sup Suet Sao set for begginers ? I always thought that Sigung chiu Wai had learned his hung gar sets from his parents Chiu Kao Sifu / Siu Ying Simu . But had no idea that Sigung Chiu Wai had created Sup Suet Sao for beginers and Sup Duk Sao an advance set .

I do know that his younger brother Sigung Chiu Chi Ling sells the set Sup Ying on video so is that an advance set too ?

Because , I do know that Lau Kar Leung Sifu had choregraph the kung fu moves for the shaw brothers kung fu movies . So maybe the set in the movie in which you people are talking about could be a combination of Lau Kar Leung Sifu and Sigung Chiu Wai , or maybe Chi Kuan Chun could be involved with the choregraphing of the set you people are talking about , I ' m not sure .
And Hasayfu thanks alot for posting the information on Chi Kuan Chun I do know that he learned Hung Gar from someone , but did ' nt know who ?
I read on the HK movie biography saying that he is a Hung Gar stylist but don ' nt who he learned from ? But thanks to you I know now , because I saw the clip on his interview .
So thanks for posting the information .



Take Care ,
Jing

[jing]

Hello,

this is a choreographed form for the movie from my Sigung Lau Kar Leung..my sigung was the teacher for the shaw brothers actors and also martial arts director for all the early shaolin movies.

FrankyLau ,

Hello , ! Yeah ! I know about your Lau Kar Leung Sifu , he ' s really good too , Have you seen drunken monkey with Lau Kar Leung Sifu and Gordon Liu ? It was good movie they had the drunken monkey , but I don 'nt if they made that set up and included with their hung gar lineage , but it ' s a good set though .
Lau Kar Lueng Sifu I love all his movies especially challenge of the masters . His new movie drunken monkey I had to watch it many times .
Lau Kar Lueng Sifu looked liked he had many years of experiences in Hung Gar kung fu , according to the way he choregraphed the kung fu moves in the movies he choregraphed too . Chi kuan Chun was good too ,
I guess , it ' s competitive to see 2 Hung Gar practitioners battling against eachother , but for after it ' s just a movie . I hate to compare these 2 people because these 2 practioners of hung gar kung fu are from different hung gar lineages . But they ' re just as good as eachother .

So franky does your Sifu teach the Sup Kuen Sao set too ? To me all the regardless of the different lineages of hung gar sifus , their sets looks different from eachother , but applications are the same even when the moves of the set are different too .
But other than that Hung Gar is the oldest but still the best kung fu system anybody could learn , practice and when need to , use it .



Take Care ,
Jing

[FrankyLau]

Hi Jing,

no we dont have this set as well as Lau Sigung doesnt teach lau gar kuen,mui fah kuen,wu dip cheong etc...he only teaches gung gee,fu hok,ng hang and tit sin..then the lau monkey fist and a form called fah kuen which comes from his father Lau Jaam.
Lau Jaam learned from Lam sai wing and in the memorial book of lam sai wing from 1951 it says that wong fei hung considered Lau Jaam as one of the best fighters from the new generation...
Our monkey fist is indeed a combination of many monkey styles combined by Lau Kar Leung.
Chi Kuan chun learned from Chiu Wai but when he entered the movie world he also learned from lau kar Leung.The Lau Family was always involved in the movie scene but that because of their kung fu...
theres a lion dance from Lau Jaam on youtube...check out how fast and agile he is and how strong his stances are even hes a bit heavy set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo1FKJMk7Z4

[hasayfu]

Hello Hasayfu ,

I did ' nt know that Sigung Chiu Wai had created the Sup Suet Sao set for begginers ? I always thought that Sigung chiu Wai had learned his hung gar sets from his parents Chiu Kao Sifu / Siu Ying Simu . But had no idea that Sigung Chiu Wai had created Sup Suet Sao for beginers and Sup Duk Sao an advance set .

I do know that his younger brother Sigung Chiu Chi Ling sells the set Sup Ying on video so is that an advance set too ?


Take Care ,
Jing

You are correct that Sigung learned from his father. He teaches a lot of sets outside the 4 pillers. I'm told he created sup suet sau. I'm not actually sure who created sup duk sao but he is the only one I know who teaches his version so I think he may be the creator.

Sup Ying (10 shapes/animals) is one of the 4 "pillar" sets from Hung Gar. Franky, you mention Ng Hang. Is that different then Ng Ying Ng Hang (5 animal, 5 elements and another name for Sup Ying)?

I've noticed that Sup Ying/Ng Ying is the one set that is vastly different amongst the various lineages. It's also the one of the 4 that no book was written. When I showed this set to Franky's SiGung in Malaysia, he said they did not have a set like that which combined the different characteristics in groups.

[jing]

Hi Jing,

no we dont have this set as well as Lau Sigung doesnt teach lau gar kuen,mui fah kuen,wu dip cheong etc...he only teaches gung gee,fu hok,ng hang and tit sin..then the lau monkey fist and a form called fah kuen which comes from his father Lau Jaam.
Lau Jaam learned from Lam sai wing and in the memorial book of lam sai wing from 1951 it says that wong fei hung considered Lau Jaam as one of the best fighters from the new generation...
Our monkey fist is indeed a combination of many monkey styles combined by Lau Kar Leung.
Chi Kuan chun learned from Chiu Wai but when he entered the movie world he also learned from lau kar Leung.The Lau Family was always involved in the movie scene but that because of their kung fu...
theres a lion dance from Lau Jaam on youtube...check out how fast and agile he is and how strong his stances are even hes a bit heavy set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo1FKJMk7Z4

FrankyLau ,

Hello , thanks alot for the information about the hung ga sets and Chi Kuan Chun in general , I really appreciate it . And that monkey moves in the movie was very flashy and good too . So Lau Kar Leung Sifu got creative too then ? With the monkey set , just like Sigung Chiu Wai with the set he created for beginners , I forgot the name of the set so excuse me . And the lion dance by Lau Kar Jaam Sifu was good too , it sounds very traditional , but I Loved the lion dance too . You ' re Sifu Lau Kar Leung , very skillful in hung gar kung fu and fast too . Chi Kuan Chun just as good , infact all those actors Alexander Fu Sheng , David Chiang , Chen Kuan Tai were all my favorite actors and I ' m sure they all had hung gar training too .
But I think that David Chiang himself learned praying mantis too .

Anyway , Frankylau thanks again for the information .


Take Care ,
Jing

[jing]

Hello Hasayfu ,

I did ' nt know that Sigung Chiu Wai had created the Sup Suet Sao set for begginers ? I always thought that Sigung chiu Wai had learned his hung gar sets from his parents Chiu Kao Sifu / Siu Ying Simu . But had no idea that Sigung Chiu Wai had created Sup Suet Sao for beginers and Sup Duk Sao an advance set .

I do know that his younger brother Sigung Chiu Chi Ling sells the set Sup Ying on video so is that an advance set too ?


Take Care ,
Jing

You are correct that Sigung learned from his father. He teaches a lot of sets outside the 4 pillers. I'm told he created sup suet sau. I'm not actually sure who created sup duk sao but he is the only one I know who teaches his version so I think he may be the creator.

Sup Ying (10 shapes/animals) is one of the 4 "pillar" sets from Hung Gar. Franky, you mention Ng Hang. Is that different then Ng Ying Ng Hang (5 animal, 5 elements and another name for Sup Ying)?

I've noticed that Sup Ying/Ng Ying is the one set that is vastly different amongst the various lineages. It's also the one of the 4 that no book was written. When I showed this set to Franky's SiGung in Malaysia, he said they did not have a set like that which combined the different characteristics in groups.

Hasayfu ,

Hello , Thank you for the information on sup suet sao , I did ' nt know that
Sigung Chiu Kao taught alot of hung gar sets to his 2 sons and to his students in general too .

Do they have the set Sup Suet Sao on DVD or Video ? The set looks good , but effective .
And every hung gar lineages would have their own hung gar sets in general .
Well thanks again Hasayfu .


Take Care ,
Jing

[Scimitar]

PM from the other board just posted this link from youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs94mOqUYCE

This is the full set I was trying to describe at the start of this topic.