Fighting stance

[Dan C]

This also provides an exposed knee for your opponent. Although the knee joint is a hard joint to injure when it comes to circular kicks, such as the round kick, it is definitely in danger of it. I don't know about BSL, but in JKD and Kali we have a kick called the Dum Tek. The execution is different between the styles, but the translation should give you a good idea of it's purpose. Dum Tek = Stomp Kick. Used with the instep of the rear foot. The path is straight through the knee joint as you close the gap to trapping range.

As Tom mentioned, BSL students can use a low side kick to attack the knee joint. If your opponent is in a stance similar to that of a boxer and you use that kick on his kneecap, then it’s easy to imagine that the knee could be hyper extended and break. Yesterday, I got into a sideways facing horse stance and had Andrea use those side kicks on my left knee. The knee just moved with the kick. It looks like those low stances actually protect the knees by making it easier for them to bend without breaking.

If your opponent wants to kick the front of your knee when you’re in a sideways facing horse stance, then he could use a round kick. If you’re in a low horse stance with your knees bent at nearly 90 degrees, then it’s unlikely that the kick would hyper extend your knee, but the kick could still be painful. The typical BSL defence for such a kick would be to lift your lead foot off of the ground. If you’re quick, the kick will miss your leg entirely. If you’re not quick, then the kick will hit your shin instead of your knee.

I do agree that it would be difficult to fight like a western boxer from a sideways facing horse stance, but maybe the idea of fighting like a boxer is really the source of the problem. I think I’ll continue to play around with the horse stance and see what happens.

[GrandMaggot]

Set stances are perfect for one-on-one play sparring.

But in reality combat, one doesn't have the time nor opportunity to go into a stance. And if one does, he's wasting his time by not attacking or fleeing. Bruce Lee taught this by throwing stuff at people and noting that they would simply catch the object without thinking about it or going into a predetermined stance.

BSL was created in an era before modern day sparring competitions were held. That's why it doesn't have the standard moves we are used to seeing in point sparring competitions and movies. Because of BSL's Muslim Cha Quan root, it relies on large basic motions that can be shrunken to smaller ones in reality combat. Capoeira, Lama Fist, Tongbeiquan, and even savate have that "shrinkable" mentality for actual streetfighting that takes place at any conceivable range. All of these methods are fancy in training but become strikingly plain and subtle in real fights.

The cool part about BSL is that it's one of the few kung fu methods that can do the moves from other styles. For example, there are Tae Kwon Do style sidekicks in the "Moi Fah" set right around the middle before one goes into the crescent spin kick. And not only can BSL be used for reality combat, it can be used for noncombative disciplines like dance (very similar to ballet) and even Ch'an moving meditation.

The versatility of BSL stems from the fact that it tries to do just about every human conceivable move. Thus the way one uses BSL is truly limitless provided that he learns the basics well.

[ogrelee]

Set stances are perfect for one-on-one play sparring.

But in reality combat, one doesn't have the time nor opportunity to go into a stance. And if one does, he's wasting his time by not attacking or fleeing. Bruce Lee taught this by throwing stuff at people and noting that they would simply catch the object without thinking about it or going into a predetermined stance.

JKD actually advocates the use of the By-jong stance, a hold over from the Jun Fan days. Bruce thought that footwork was more important than stability for people his size and/or speed.

People my size, 5'11" and 215 would not be pigeonholed in JKD to the By-jong stance, though. Bruce's footwork was like tap dancing to my waltzing. Bruce was like a fencer in his personal style, but he didn't want anyone copying his style. He wanted them to use the science he laid out to develop whatever worked for the user. The Unifying principle to my footwork is the transition step, a method of remaining poised and grounded while moving. This fits my personal style of hit grab and throw much better than Lee's tap dancing.

A stance is actualy taken whether one knows it or not. It may have no name, but the position a technique is executed from is a stance. If one tries to remain moving while delivering a technique, it will have no power.
Bruce would deliver a punch before he stopped moving, but the punch itself was recieved when his lead foot came down. He theorized that his opponent would be forced to absorb more of the kinetic energy that way.

BSL was created in an era before modern day sparring competitions were held. That's why it doesn't have the standard moves we are used to seeing in point sparring competitions and movies. Because of BSL's Muslim Cha Quan root, it relies on large basic motions that can be shrunken to smaller ones in reality combat. Capoeira, Lama Fist, Tongbeiquan, and even savate have that "shrinkable" mentality for actual streetfighting that takes place at any conceivable range. All of these methods are fancy in training but become strikingly plain and subtle in real fights.

Most chinese arts or at least forms were developed before modern point sparring. Of course I do not include the Wushu performance forms in this group. Just about any art that uses forms has that large frame mentality except those that specifically claim to be small frame or small circle.
How does the Shaolin Temple's art, a chan buddhist temple, come from a muslim root? Cha quan is just one of the arts that influenced the temples fighting style, if anything it's root comes from your favorite, the five animal follies. Other arts were adapted and added as they were "discovered" and catalogued by the monks. The Muslim Cha fist was more likely derived from muslim fighting arts mixed with information from the shaolin temple, then folded back in anyway.

I do agree with you on the point that they all become shorter in the path they follow, one of the great methods of developing proper jing over time and with continued practice.

The cool part about BSL is that it's one of the few kung fu methods that can do the moves from other styles. For example, there are Tae Kwon Do style sidekicks in the "Moi Fah" set right around the middle before one goes into the crescent spin kick. And not only can BSL be used for reality combat, it can be used for noncombative disciplines like dance (very similar to ballet) and even Ch'an moving meditation.

The versatility of BSL stems from the fact that it tries to do just about every human conceivable move. Thus the way one uses BSL is truly limitless provided that he learns the basics well.

Call me a kung fu snob, but BSL's root arts were actually the parents of TKD and many others. Considering that fact and the fact that the shaolin arts are repositories of "What works", it shouldn't be strange to see signs of other arts in the techniques.

[GrandMaggot]

I'm traditionally trained by a sifu from mainland China, so my view of kung fu is very different from people whose instructors have trained with stylists from Hong Kong (a former British colony until the last 10 years).

Because of that background, my take on kung fu is very similar to that of Adam Hsu (himself a sifu trained in mainland kung fu methods) in his book "The Sword Polisher's Record". According to him, Shaolin is extremely recent history in Chinese kung fu. Hsu even goes so far to say something along the lines of "don't call the grandson the grandfather" in trying to tell people that Shaolin was YOUNGER than the arts that supposedly sprang from it. This view is echoed in the mainland by sifus who have no connection to Hsu.

Most mainland Chinese would agree that Cha quan is one of the oldest arts there is. How old, nobody knows. Older than or younger than Shaolin, nobody really knows either. And did it originate in Shaolin as a monk creation or did it originate outside the temple in Muslim communities and filter its way in? Most Chinese martial arts scholars do not know the answers, especially since virtually all of Shaolin's library was destroyed in the Cultural Revolution.

In Chinese, "cha" means "muslim". Since BSL has been strongly influenced by cha quan, I have a tendency to call BSL "Muslim". Ku Yu Cheong's father Ku Lei Chi "was himself an accomplished practitioner of tan tui, which originated within China's small Muslim community" (Northern Shaolin Kung Fu pg 15, Lai Hung and Brian Klingborg).

I've long suspected that Ku Lei Chi knew more than JUST Tai Tui despite having no observable connection to the Shaolin Temple. And if he didn't, his wealth as a successful businessman would've allowed him to do the age-old practice of bringing in tutors to teach his son the cha quan that he himself practiced. That was extremely common practice in China back then and still is today. In fact, sending his son off to Yen Chi Wen to augment his training indicates that Ku Lei Chi was more than willing to hire the best instructors for his son's martial education. Also, cha quan has 10 sets of its own with a lot of similar moves to BSL.

As far as Kuo Yu Cheong learning the BSL curriculum from Shaolin monk Yen Chi-Wen in Shandong Province, it's hard to say if that was so. Lai Hung states in his book "Whether the 10 primary forms of Bak Siu Lum were passed on to Ku directly from Yen is impossible to say". Keep in mind that Lai Hung is the acknowledged BSL disciple of Lung Tze Hsiang, who is a training brother of Kwong Wing Lam's Yen Shang Wo. Thus Lai Hung's remarks about Northern Shaolin's debatable origins shoud be taken very seriously by anybody studying the style or its history.

Here's what the noted kung fu historian Jane Hallander had to say about Northern Shaolin's lack of relation to the Buddhist Shaolin Temple:

"From that blending [of village martial arts] came variations of chang chuan, such as Northern Shaolin (Siu Lum in Cantonese). Northern Shaolin, although not pure chang chuan, is close enough to be easily mistaken for it. Northern Shaolin is actually a form of chang chuan that was enlarged upon during the last part of the Ming and the first part of the Ching dynasties, hence the name Shaolin, which is misleading since it suggests Buddhist origins". (the Complete Guide to Kung Fu Fighting styles, page 30)

In China, many stylists refer to "cha quan" and "chang quan" as basically the same art. The consensus is that cha quan is the oldest style, with Tan Tui being the foundation set for the style. Because mainland Chinese traditional kung fu masters do not make the categorical delineations that Westerners do, they will often call a derivative of longfist "cha quan" even it it has no overtly Muslim origin.

So because of my Chinese cultural training roots, I have a tendency to use terminology used by my Chinese counterparts. This causes understandable confusion for Western based kung fu practitioners who are not familiar with Chinese terminology and language patterns.

This is no different from a lot of people using the term "karate" to describe the word "kung fu", even though the Japanese ideograms for "kara te" originally translated into "China hand" until Gichin Funakoshi changed it to "Empty Hand" (he was talking about the MIND). Besides, the ideograms for "kung fu" translates into "skilled technique" and not even "Chinese fighting style". So whenever somebody inadvertently says I do "karate" even after I tell them that I do "kung fu", I don't even bat an eyelash and simply smile.

As for TKD's BSL connection, I'm not sure. My old school Korean TKD instructor (Kukkiwon trained) told me that TKD was originally Shotokan karate that was expanded on by the Kukkiwon experts in trying to make Shotokan more suited for their uses. If that is indeed the case, then BSL would have at best a peripheral influence on TKD since shotokan is a modern day fusion of Shorin and Shorei Ryu (both of which have NO BSL influence, having come from Okinawa).

My instructor also told me that the high kicks were taken from the old Korean nonfighting game of "Tae Kyon", which is indeed very old. This view was written about in the Journal of Asian Martial arts a few years ago that was studying the history of Tae Kyon. Indeed, the "Tae Kyon" influence was so great on TKD that its name was imprinted into what we known as "Tae Kwon Do".

There is this: In the 20th century, BSL practitioners had started to spread around the world (Sifu Wing Lam is an example of this). So it's POSSIBLE that BSL influenced TKD via a modern day practitioner like Wing Lam, though I am a bit skeptical of that since I've never seen any Kukkiwon teachings that take note of BSL's influence as the elder art.

[ogrelee]

Chang Chuan Is indeed newer, That much I know, as it is the only real "Shaolin" Quan shu I practiced, and not some strange shaolin-do jitsu type crap. I have a passing familiarity with a few of the forms taught in BSL, because they apparently crossover in places.

My personal observation concerning the two lineages is that they are not actually the same style, rather one (Chang Chuan) was heavily influenced by the other, somewhat older style BSL. What i have learned from various teachers has sometimes been conflicting concerning the history of Chang Chuan, but the existence of the older weapon sets and the carry-over of the 10 hand sets (dropped for modern Chang chuan) indicate that BSL is closer to the root.

Cha fist is a very large style, with a tremendous amount of material, and i'm sure its roots are not just Muslim. Even the forms show their different roots to those familiar with the tags. But for about the last 300 years the Muslim population in China has been more heavily concentrated in the northern communities, evidence given to the quisine of the region utilizing mutton and lamb, rarely seen in other parts of China, and greatly respected by the Muslim population. It stands to logic that a northern style would eventually be associated with the Muslim community whether it was actually a muslim invention or not. The point is, we don't really know, and 300 years or more of influence would render the point moot today.

Still, modern history and confusion aside, rebuilding Shaolin arts with Shaolin derived arts should render any arguments immaterial, the root is still Shaolin. And we all know, the temple arts had a lot to do with the evolution of the arts themselves in China even before the first razing, probably including Cha Fist.

[GrandMaggot]

Probably NOT, according to Hsu and Hallander as I stated above.

In mainland China traditional kung fu instructors, the obsession with "Shaolin being the root of everything" is nowhere near as strong as those who studied with Hong Kong based instructors. I can't emphasize enough how radically different the mentality and training is between guys on the mainland and people from that southern port city.

But you're entitled to your opinions, and that's cool. For all I know, you very well could be right and Hsu/Hallander are 100% wrong.

[ogrelee]

That's cool with me. Just repeating what I was taught. I realize that much of the history of martial arts in china is probably romanticized. But there is historical hard evidence that the monks of shaolin studied and catalogued all kinds of martial arts at the temple.

According to what remains of the records, martial arts were around for a long time before the chinese started to actually catalog them. That distinction goes to the shaolin temple starting around 528 A.D. Being the earliest to record that information is probably where the legends of the temple being the source came from.

Even so, according to records from the temple , the monk Bai, Yu-feng is credited with a very important accomplishment. During the Song dynasty, he organized the various fighting styles and placed the 18 Buddha Hands of Shaolin in order and further developed them into the 173 techniques of Shaolin Chuan. This catalog was partly responsible for popularizing the Shaolin arts. More importantly, He organized the techniques by animal character and wrote the book Essence Of The Five Fist, which included The five animal patterns in their proper order. For one thing, this means the patterns already existed in the Temple's repository, they just needed to be organized. Keep in mind that this book is the first written on the subject and came from research performed in the temple.
It is very likely that this was the real beginning for Hung Gar, too. Bai's monk name was Qiu Yue Chan Shi. Ring any bells?

Now, that was supposed to have been before 1000 A.D. And we know that the Five Animal Play became the basis for many other styles of arts, created iether from them or influenced by them. The Shaolin records also indicate that martial training continued even when it was outlawed, a fact that influenced the temple being burned three times during the period from the time it was built to the Qing Dynasty. There is quite a bit of written historical evidence that Shaolin temple disseminated a lot of their research to other buddhist temples all over China, and tons of written history that says that the monks had a huge catalog of woodcuts and books on arts both hidden and for public consumption.

The largest amount of damage to the Shaolin cache of techniques actually occurred in 1928. Up until this time, attacks on the temple that resulted in it's burnings avoided destroying the martial records (Most of the time, these records were part of what the attackers were after,and there were doubles of many of the records used as decoys). The final burning in the Qing had destroyed many of the working copies at the temple, but the main library had been spared. In 1928, before copies had been replaced by the monks, the Warlord Shi, You-San's troops started a fire near the temple That ended up burning out of control. The main library at the temple was lost to both parties during this tragic accident. The fire was supposedly started in the area of the temple as part of the Chinese Civil War that was raging through the country, and ironically not actually aimed at the temple alone. What this should point out to most is that there may indeed still be old men out there that know what was on those scrolls and in those books. I believe that Ku Yu Cheong was one of those men, and my theory is that the ten hand sets are what remains of the 18 hands and one hundred seventy three techniques of Bai's works. I also believe full-heartedly that the temple's greatest secrets were not quan shu, fist technique, but qigong.

Supposedly, the last abbot of the temple during the Civil War period actually mandated the remaining monks with knowledge to teach out what they knew in an effort to preserve the knowledge on those lost scrolls.

[GrandMaggot]

Gee Shim Shin See would be the Cantonese name of the monk you mentioned as the founder of HG, I suspect.

The interesting thing about that is that many HG lineages trace their mastery of the style back to Gee going back only a few generations. I remember being in a HG school counting the generations and figuring that a few hundred years may have lapsed. Of course, there's no guaranteeing how exact those lineage charts are.

Given the overall lack of education in China until fairly recently, I try not to get too wrapped up in details anymore.

[ogrelee]

I usually trust the records that were kept for two simple and logical reasons-No 1 is that the chinese are always trying to make things neat and orderly, building lists and organizing charts and so on. Given that inclination, the people that actually do the recording, the poor sod who's job is "clerk", is probably so retentive that his butt is more waterproof than a frog's, if you see what I mean.

And the second reason is that until fairly recently, you iether were educated or not. And if you were, you were generally very well educated. They didn't usually do it half way.

On top of that, the non martial monks that were responsible for the records would have been some of the best educated of all, and also about the most OC about the accuracy of those records. Keep in mind that the lineage at Shaolin Temple has been tracked since the temple was founded.
The first monk was a buddhist pilgrim named Batuo. No records of his contribution to the temple were kept, IE, we don't know what he taught the other monks. According to records of Dang feng county concerning the land, Batuo arrived and made his request in 464 A.D. The original temple was built 31 years later in 495 A.D.
And we have the records going back all that way, because the weren't kept in the library, they were kept in the "business offices".

You know, I was just thinking about a post I made earlier concerning illustrated guides and woodcuttings that the monks were known to have recorded the arts with. I made a comment about the lost arts waiting to be reclaimed from print.
What would happen if the art of a certain someone was left and neglected for generations, then someone got a hold of one of those illustrated guides, at the temple, and revived it? Who would be your sifu in that case? I would think it would be the author of the book, wouldn't you? And they'd probably give the monk that mastered the techniques the next place in lineage.

Ehh, food for thought.