*sex* and Iron Palm

[mark]

Just to be clear here .....

I never said not using any jow was ok (you need it). I said that Sifu Lam's IP jow is not necessary for the bean and the gravel bags as there is not rust involved. You still need jow. Sifu Lam's jow has properties to neutralize the rust.

[TehBronco]

"the more Jow you use = more $ for the master" so I question that right off the bat.

In the old days, I believe the Jow was free to the students. The Jow does help prevent nerve damage while trianing the first two bags, because we're human and can't be careful all the time.

How the good old days have passed...seriously today Kung Fu is more of a business rather than the old master-disciple relationship, so you can't really trust everything that is told to you especially when it generates a constant cash flow for the master and you have other sources that tell you it's not really that necessary.

[TehBronco]

Just to be clear here .....

I never said not using any jow was ok (you need it). I said that Sifu Lam's IP jow is not necessary for the bean and the gravel bags as there is not rust involved. You still need jow. Sifu Lam's jow has properties to neutralize the rust.

Oh, okay I understand now. What do you think of the guys who start directly on the iron bag? Would you say that your time on the bean and gravel bag was useful to you, or you feel you could have started straight on iron?

PS: My left palm is no loger blue! It has recovered it's natural color and I resumed my training today.

[NJM]

"the more Jow you use = more $ for the master" so I question that right off the bat.

In the old days, I believe the Jow was free to the students. The Jow does help prevent nerve damage while trianing the first two bags, because we're human and can't be careful all the time.

How the good old days have passed...seriously today Kung Fu is more of a business rather than the old master-disciple relationship, so you can't really trust everything that is told to you especially when it generates a constant cash flow for the master and you have other sources that tell you it's not really that necessary.

I would read mark's most recent post up there My point was that if Jow is only pushed for commercial reasons, why would it have been free and so widely revered in the old days?

[TehBronco]

I would read mark's most recent post up there My point was that if Jow is only pushed for commercial reasons, why would it have been free and so widely revered in the old days?

You make a good point indeed.
How about the Chinese Sifu who doesn't use any jow and in his IP system you start straight on the iron bag? He is old, and his hands are fine.
His name is Master Li Suiyin, I know all this from his disciple Omar, he is the American guy in blue. They were both on Chinese television and here's a clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg
Not all chinese use jow.

[NJM]

Not all chinese use jow.

And not all surgeons used sterilized tools.

[TehBronco]

Not all chinese use jow.

And not all surgeons used sterilized tools.

That doesn't really apply...you're comparing this guy to a hack doctor? You saw his resume and you can't contest that he is a legitimate Chinese master who doesn't use DDJ and has no problems with his hands.
But of course the best way to escape reason would be to say something cryptic like "Not all surgeons use sterilized tools".

[mark]

Oh, okay I understand now. What do you think of the guys who start directly on the iron bag? Would you say that your time on the bean and gravel bag was useful to you, or you feel you could have started straight on iron?

PS: My left palm is no loger blue! It has recovered it's natural color and I resumed my training today.

Starting on the bean and gravel bags first allows you to get use to the proper height, rhythm and intensity of the strike. You could never do the same thing with steel and not get injuries. You can start with a steel bag but then you would have to start off with little baby strikes, no intensity and a slower rhythm to keep you from injuries.

Glad to here your hand is OK. Now you learned something - pass it on.

[kungfu-photomaster]

Not all chinese use jow.

Tehbronco you point to the exception NOT the rule. (And honestly we don't know what that master does at home, or when he was younger, or maybe he takes internal formulas.)

Glad to hear you no longer have "Smurf-Hand" Just take your time if you need to take a few days off to let your hand properly heal do so, rushing your training will actually hinder your advancement.

Some systems do start on steel shot. I to did the (Wing Lam) progressive method. I'm am glad I did so. I went slowly and worked my way up. I've been on steel shot a few years now and It has been many months since I have had an injury of any sort. But it is a gradual build up. Conditioning the skin, then the muscle/sinew, finally bone and chi...

I believe there are many ways to the mountain top, however some roads are more direct than others.

p.s. I hope you have Sifu Wing Lam's book.

[NJM]

Not all chinese use jow.

And not all surgeons used sterilized tools.

That doesn't really apply...you're comparing this guy to a hack doctor? You saw his resume and you can't contest that he is a legitimate Chinese master who doesn't use DDJ and has no problems with his hands.
But of course the best way to escape reason would be to say something cryptic like "Not all surgeons use sterilized tools".

lol, I was just playin. And I don't know if his hands are healthy or not.

[TehBronco]

Starting on the bean and gravel bags first allows you to get use to the proper height, rhythm and intensity of the strike. You could never do the same thing with steel and not get injuries. You can start with a steel bag but then you would have to start off with little baby strikes, no intensity and a slower rhythm to keep you from injuries.

Glad to here your hand is OK. Now you learned something - pass it on.

Yeah I've been spending extra time with Jow and massage and the break from training did the job, thank you for your help.
6 months to 1 year seems like an awful lot of time to train proper height and intensity, I am probably going to make the change a lot faster and I will be using A LOT of jow. I'm talking to the guys from the other system and they do 200 strikes twice a day on the iron bag. After two years they already go into maintenance mode hitting the bag only twice a week.
At least now I know to stop if I see any signs of injury.

[TehBronco]

Tehbronco you point to the exception NOT the rule. (And honestly we don't know what that master does at home, or when he was younger, or maybe he takes internal formulas.)

Glad to hear you no longer have "Smurf-Hand" Just take your time if you need to take a few days off to let your hand properly heal do so, rushing your training will actually hinder your advancement.

Some systems do start on steel shot. I to did the (Wing Lam) progressive method. I'm am glad I did so. I went slowly and worked my way up. I've been on steel shot a few years now and It has been many months since I have had an injury of any sort. But it is a gradual build up. Conditioning the skin, then the muscle/sinew, finally bone and chi...

I believe there are many ways to the mountain top, however some roads are more direct than others.

p.s. I hope you have Sifu Wing Lam's book.

You know what, you're right. Jow can only help and it's not like I can't afford it or something, I'm a Ph D for Pete's sake . When you brew your own it becomes quite affordable actually.
How much time do you spend daily on the iron bag right now?

[mark]

6 months to 1 year seems like an awful lot of time to train proper height and intensity, I am probably going to make the change a lot faster and I will be using A LOT of jow. I'm talking to the guys from the other system and they do 200 strikes twice a day on the iron bag. After two years they already go into maintenance mode hitting the bag only twice a week.
At least now I know to stop if I see any signs of injury.

Well ... everyone has to find his own path. Just do not go too fast and damage your hands.

[NJM]

Yeah I've been spending extra time with Jow and massage and the break from training did the job, thank you for your help.
6 months to 1 year seems like an awful lot of time to train proper height and intensity, I am probably going to make the change a lot faster and I will be using A LOT of jow.

Careful, now, we don't want you going all Anakin Skywalker on us. Don't take it too fast.

[TehBronco]

Well ... everyone has to find his own path. Just do not go too fast and damage your hands.

I'll probably go the rest of this month on the bean bag, do the second month on the rock then move on to iron.
It's really hard to find iron shot, I don't even know if they make it anymore. I found some zinc plated steel shot at a reloading store and of course there's always the steel BB's which are copper plated. Do you see any problem with one of those as a filling for the bag or must they be pure and uncoated? Also do you really need them to rust, because I was thinking of using leather for the iron bag so I won't have to worry about the zinc or copper plating.