Double standard for kung fu.

[Subitai]

This thread is to move this discussion to it' own idea.

I have to agree that there does exist an unfair standard for kung fu. Again, it is based on peoples' persceptions of kung fu. Namely the movies and folklore are to blame and they are not a REAL representation that replaces good ol' fashion sweat and hard work.

I encounter quite often that people think kung fu should be fancy or be able to WIN with "STYLE". This frustrates me to no end.

I have a big brother "GENE" in charge of a Great Magazine "Kung Fu Qigong" and for some time I've thought about writting. But then I think, who cares what people think? But for you guys. Ok...i'll spill alittle.

Take the SWEET science of Western Boxing...I love it. SImple, direct, flowing and VERY effective. But when a boxer misses or blocks, slips, bobs and weaves...He is SETTING UP his opponant. He is always allowed that forgiveness to get his "GROVE" on and ulitimately...get into his opponants timing or just plane set it up so that he can finish. This may take a few exchanges but the job gets done.

Kung fu on the other hand is often perceived unfairly...Immediately, people assume the KF man must be just like in the movies using animal styles or movements EXACTLY as they are done in the forms.
....IF it doesn't go down that way, Kung Fu sucks. Views of the masses.

Even, more educated people don't give Kung Fu enough Set Up Time...if it needs it. This goes for any TMA btw.

Let's use a very simplistic example. ..Insert any TMA " Here ", doing a basic upper forearm block and reverse punch VS. a MMA doing boxing. Let's just keep it simple and not even talk about ground fighting yet. The two combatants are not already bridged or touching eachother and are free to move and use their footwork.

Problem for the TMA is the notion of the JAB, because it's fast, sets you up and doesn't fully commit you. (I can into CHAPTERS of material on the significance and importance of the jab concept) But I won't here.

For this example, if the MMA is using a JAB/Cross...the TMA needs to be aware of the method and to be able to get into his opponants timing to be able to use this straight up method of block and punch. If he fails the outcome is obvious...the TMA was using a slower method vs a faster jab that undoubtibly set up the tma to get the smack down from the cross.

Pretending that all I knew was Block and Reverse punch and all my opponant knew was Jabb and Cross. It make take me awhile but I know that I have to skill and method to make it work. THE KEY IS TIME and EFFORT to set it up. Reality is...it make take me a few times to get it, but once I did, I know I can make it work.


But the point of this whole tirade is that people would not give me the time. The MASSES view for sure is that, if I failed on the VERY 1ST attempt or if it didn't look as pretty as when I was doing a form...then it must be no good. It's unfair, fighting is dirty and gritty, plus my opponant will Undoubtibly resist me or protect himself...thus another reason that my method (although working) may not look so pretty.

It's the hard work and toughness of the person that wins out, styles are only a vehicle to learn the methodology, they are not doctrine.
I'm not complaining mind you, i'm only making a point of other peoples perceptions. So take the grain of salt if you want.

Yes Kung Fu does forms but forms are not fighting. Fact is, I think that GM said it...Most people who are doing KF are not Professional fighters...I highly agree. We've all said it 100 x's on a 100 forums...it's not the style, it's the hard work of the person that wins.

It's funny how history repeats itself...I may have to cut and paste old threads.

"O"

[Subitai]

Recently a Hung Gar master (who's done it for 40 years) was involved in a street challenge with Bullshido.com staff. This HG master used to brag that he could not be taken down, he used to claim a lot of street victories and he even extended a challenge to the Gracie family.
What ultimately happened is that he got taken down and was ground and pounded by a 2 year student of BJJ who was also 50 pounds lighter and a regular drug user. The whole thing was caught on video and the name of Kung Fu was again dragged through the dirt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m3HcgR2_vA
Grand Maggot already knows about this incident.
So it's not all really that cut and dry.

Ok,

1) To copy what all the MMA/BJJ guys say if a nobody gets beat in MMA..." I don't recognize that guy as a top player"

...I personally know of most of the Hung Ga Families. I also know that NOT ONE OF THEM has ever sent an official representative to fight MMA. Why? Because they know in their hearts that they don't train hard enough to fight as the professional do. Traditional training doesn't equate to Fighing condition on a professional Competition level. There's good and bad to it.

2) Bad thing for any TMA or Hung Gar is...WHO IS A TOP PLAYER that everyone would be satisfied with? Certainly not ME...too many politics and such. Even if I did fight again and won, people would say that i'm not Pure Hung Gar and that ultimately I was just a MMA who claimed Kung Fu.


....the silly thing is, most styles like Hung Gar are in fact MMA...kind of...they've just been evolving steadily with each generation.

3) About John F. Springer being a master....That makes me laugh, my own sifu would never reffer to himself as a master and even after 100 yrs I WOULD NEVER, its' silly. Because my idea of a master is so off the charts, that is it a metaphore for endless training.

And to answer his 40 yrs claim. That means nothing to me. I'll tell you a famous Chinese parable:

A guy walks up to a wheel maker and says can you make this type of wheel?

He says, "Yes, i've been doing this for 20yrs". (implies allot of experience)

The buyer says, "How do I know, you don't have just 1 yr of experience, 20 times?"

"O"

[Subitai]

Subitai
Member
It has come full circle

Kong,
In the beginning of the modern NHB era everyone believed ground fighting was it and they mostly always went down.
Then when the everyone mixed it up and learned different ranges and skills...they had to respect the other man in front of them.
Result = If you look at allot of the recent NHB matches you see allot more stand up out of respect for each-others abilities.
SO IT HAS COME FULL CIRCLE. I've said it many times, in the street you don't know what your opponent knows OR WHAT HE IS CARRYING. Out of respect and precaution that's why fighting has developed the way it has all these years.
(if i have knife, ill gut the meanest 400lb fighter in the world like a fish if he gets too close) 1st his extremities and tendons then the kill.

Ask those MMA guys to fight w/ knives and watch how they will look like everyone else out there.

{ Kong } I'm very sorry that CMA did not fulfill you but you cannot say that it is pointless.(Perhaps you don't mean that though)
All I’m saying is, if it saves any Joe Schmo out there then it has worked.
I've watched "Knifefighters" posts for some time now and seen his bio. He's correct and seems to speak from experience. But remember, even he has Played CMA and will tell you that it has it's place and not totally useless.
I've been in real NHB events. I'm far from the best. I may never be the best, nobody is. All I know is the more i train, the more people i get better than.
But fighting NHB in a gym or garage no matter how realistic is still not exactly like being in the Superbowl = I.e. a Pay per view event. There are allot of other factors that come into play. You don't just show up and fight on the same day.
It is a weeklong experience or more.

There is training, physicals and blood testing, plane travel (jet lag), strange hotels, shady promoters, prostitution (i.e. prostitutes being offered to you), Drugs, gambling, blackmailing, famous fighters infidelities with chicks while we were on location...the list goes on. All these things were approached and the opportunities presented themselves to me. It's alot to think about prior to putting yourself on TV and 20,000+ live people who are screaming "Break his Arm" or "Boo" in a coliseum.
(Due to the fighters’ code: I cannot expound on really nitty gritty gossip)
So if you put your thoughts into this mindset at least the UFC type experience.
From experience I can honestly say, it is not like any real fight that I’ve been in. All of my real fights have been spontaneous and usually with a clear (or slightly intoxicated, haha) head.
Anybody, who argues or speculates about this entire experience w/o having gone through the process is...just that speculating.
To conclude, it is as we have always known. Any mans game at any given moment. Fighting is Chaos
Peace,
Onassis Parungao a.k.a. "O"

I've been saying it all along, i'm not For kung fu specifically, or any other style. It's about how you train it.

***********************

I see what your getting at, but I already covered that with my statement.

Fight like you train.

I never said anything about traditional, non traditional, ect. I only kept to a simple concept. "The premise of going to the ground"

Now, if you care to answer this question:
Did you train specifically for fighting when you were doing kung fu?

I bet your answer is no, if so, then the weaknesses you see in Kung Fu is not the style but how you trained it.

Do you believe that only BJJ, has evolved?

Interesting example you gave, I agree w/ you. With my collegiate wrestling experience alone, I know I can take down 99% of most people I meet. However, having said that, I can also counter it just as easily because of it, after the fact, I can use any methodology I want. It's not the style that is important.

You didn't get the deeper meaning of what I said, so I'll have to explain it to you.

In the example you gave, if you met that 17yr old out side of a bar in an alley, I bet big money that things would have gone differently. In the gym, you had a safe assurance that it wasn't to the death, you knew you guys were only testing eachother, the atmosphere was comfortable to you(in other words not a strange place), ect ect.

Read this again:

"With each altercation, begins a chaos that is proceeded w/ caution and apprehension....In other words, you don't know what the frell the other guy is gonna do...usually until it's too late. You have to test sense and feel. Some times by skill, sometimes by trial an error. In any case, at any time, if you are not in the right place and he is...Bam! you're getting hit, ...


Your example is still, not the Spontaneous reality of street. I know from my personal experience in the Octagon and in the gym, that none of those fights are like when I had real street fights.


Once again, i'm too lazy to retype old thoughts but will cut and paste from older threads off Kung fu online board.

Last thoughts,

You have to understand that fighting in these events is a different reality.

[GrandMaggot]

I don't want to sound as if I'm deflating the air out of the excellent topic, but I want to make this clear:

The double standard where "You suck because you do kung fu, so even a little kid doing any other style can kick your ass" ONLY exists in the prejudiced martial arts community that judges a style's superiority solely on win-loss records that take place in point-sparring tournaments like the UFC.

Since kung fu has not enjoyed widespread success in kumite one-step tournaments or in cagefighting contests scored by judges, it has acquired a bad reputation for being wimpy. But only those who actually follow martial arts tournaments would know or even care.

The general public's opinion of kung fu is far more accurate, and it's getting better as kung fu spreads outside of China like a cancer. Most people are like "Oooh, you do kung fu. Do you have a black belt?" Any of us who teach should be answering "Sort of" to that question. And if somebody finds out you do kung fu, most people are like "He must be a BADASS" as opposed to "He must be a UFC pansy".

The most fatal flaw of the martial arts community is that it watches and does so much tournament fu that it can't understand that one can easily break the rules in reality fighting. I remember being taken to task by several instructors from kung fu and non kung fu alike because I taught students how to BITE people.

The martial arts community has another fatal flaw: it doesn't acknowledge that a person can benefit from training martial arts even if his goal isn't to go into a point sparring tournament to win a trophy.

DO NOT automatically believe the claims of anybody who asserts dominance in reality fighting. If your goal is reality combat excellence, the onus is on you to verify whether or not that's true. How one does that is up to the individual, but you'll find that the truly tough guys are very understanding of how their lives can be easily ended in a real fight by even the puniest of attackers.

Anybody who runs around crowing that a guy can't fight because he does a certain style - that guy usually has very little experience in real streetfights. Yet most guys in the martial arts community do just that.

All of this is why the opinions of the martial arts community cannot and should not be taken seriously by any real kung fu practitioner.

[ogrelee]

I said it in another thread, the forms are just that, forms of the techniques we learn. As in "the basic mechanics and gross movements required to do the techniques". It is implied that evryone must make the form into a real technique through diligent training and study of how the techniques can be made to work. And yes, they often do look like crap when they are fired off in a real fighting situation. But it's not the pretty that counts in that situation, it's the ouch. People with preconcieved notions think that if it's down and dirty it's not kung fu, which is just plain wrong.

I understand where you're coming from, Subitai. How many times have people challenged whether or not you're even using kung fu?

I said in another thread on another forum that if a BJJ guy were to take up Kung fu for throwing and punching and kicking techniques, it'd be called cross training. But god forbid a kung fu man take up any ground fighting arts, he's doing it because he needs a "Real" fighting art. This is the kind of hypocrisy that ticks me off. Worse, A majority of the groundfighters I've had to stand and deliver against had no defense against small joint manipulation, and were stunned when I broke their holds. One guy who was trying to beat me with 2(!) friends actually had the gall to yell that I was doing stuff that was against the rules when I punched him in the mouth. (I hit him again, harder . Turned out he wasn't USED to being hit in the face. I only hit him twice. That ended the fight, because the other two were apparently only in it for as long as they thought I was beat. He was the captain of the wrestling team in Lake Lehman, and he took the team to the state championships that same year. He was an excellent wrestler, but a poor fighter. Actually, this was supposed to be retaliation for breaking his nose and dislocating his jaw in the lunch room. You'd have thought he'd learn the first time. His mom tried to get my mom to pay for the second wiring job, too! )

So, I believe that BJJ has as much on the street in real application as TKD or competition judo. And that's precisely because it's becoming a competition art, with most of it's practitioners being trained to fight in a ring. I predict that eventually, they'll start making the same types of mistakes you see so often in people that practice strictly for point sparring and such, like turning the back in some TKD and Karate stylists.

[GrandMaggot]

Your prediction is totally on the mark, ogrelee.

BJJ guys ALREADY make such mistakes in reality combat, just like the rest of us do. Heck, Rickson Gracie was hit with a lawsuit because he bitch-slapped a gas station owner who was mean to his wife!

Just lately, one of my bouncer students told me about a highly trained BJJ guy who was working with him as a bouncer. Every time a fight would take place, the BJJ guy and his tournament trained combative instincts would launch him on the offensive the way one of Michael Vick's pitbulls would in a dogfight. This led to numerous bad altercations at the bar that culminated in the BJJ bouncer getting into a fight while off duty. This resulted in a firing, which was long overdue.

One of my BJJ acquaintances is a professional stripper and a well known MMA combatant. I heard that he was knocked out recently with a punch for being too aggressive with some female. For all of the guy's ring dominance, it didn't save him in the street. And that's not a slam on him or BJJ either.

[ogrelee]

Heh, how do ya like that? And I haven't been in a kwoon or gym more than 3 or 4 times in a decade. Just evolution.

But just think about it -in ten years will BJJ have lost it's ring effectiveness? Probably not. But we can probably envision a lot of other arts gaining from BJJ's methods, if not techniques. One of the things I've always loved about kung fu is that it has so much leeway within the framework. When you encounter a powerful technique, you can adapt it and make it your own and it would end up LOOKING like kung fu. Because specifically many techniques can be simply cut and pasted into the kung fu methodology with so little (or no) alteration that they end up looking like they belong there.

Another prediction- someone brave enough will fold a bunch of the nastier moves (Only the most effective chokes) back into their kung fu, develop a form that catalogs it along with some of the science, and in ten years time we'll have ground fighting kung fu. Not just "kung fu That can go to ground", but a style that spends at least half it's time in that range. My prediction.

AND WE"LL STILL BE STUDYING THE RODNEY DANGERFIELD OF THE MA WORLD.
"No respect, no respect."

[GrandMaggot]

BJJ (strict BJJ) has ALREADY lost its ring effectiveness.

Gone are the days where the Gracie family could compete under tournaments with their own rules and defeat all sorts of attackers - which is still totally impressive. Nowadays, the Gracies can't even win in their OWN tournaments (e.g. the BJJ tournament Abu Dhabi where perennial champion Renzo Gracie was recently beaten on his home turf in New Jersey).

Today, one must be well versed in all sorts of different ring techniques to be successful in the cage. The latest and greatest rage to enter the cage are methods associated with Russian Sambo.

A big distinction must be made between "pure" Gracie BJJ and the MMA art that is practiced in the cage. The two are not the same, as the Gracie BJJ has a totally different mentality and fighting objective. MMA grappling in the ring is loosely BJJ based, but it bears no more functional resemblance to authentic BJJ as shotokan karate bears to Hung Ga.

Ground fighting kung fu already exists. It always used to be that way, though such knowledge was lost over the last 300 years. Since fights can occur at any range, why shouldn't a kung fu fighter be able to successfully defend himself from any position? Old school kung fu styles were surprisingly skilled at grappling and groundfighting, and a lot of the moves that the martial arts community calls "flowery" are actually grappling moves that are totally devastating to apply and defend against.

There indeed are different kinds of chokes that kung fu does that work in the street (i.e. a REVERSE mata leao where you can use your forearms to choke a guy out from the front - it's in Wing Chun's Siu Lum Tao when you cross your arms on top of each other in the middle of the set). Kung fu has an unlimited range of possibilities where the TRUE intent of the move is clear as day to he who's been trained to see and do it.

Because we're modernized (as our kung fu style dictates), we are very aware of the kinds of ground moves that BJJ and other systems pull. For example, one way to severely impede a double leg takedown is to go into a side horse stance. The transition into the horse stance offers limitless possibilities for action against a double leg takedown. I should also add that modern Western collegiate freestyle wrestling has an identical mentality against the double leg takedown, though kung fu will do more nasty "illegal" moves than collegiate wrestling will. And if we're taken down, we have no problem fighting there or keeping the guy with us if that's to our advantage. We're more interested in surviving the fight than adhering to some imaginary brain fu standard of "appropriate" technique.

Good kung fu practitioners are always seeking out new ways to better themselves, even if it means learning other people's stuff to either utilize it or fight against it.

That said, most applications are up to the individual practitioner. The reason so many people study kung fu over other styles is because good kung fu is a SPRINGBOARD for one's personal creativity.

[ogrelee]

Ground fighting kung fu already exists. It always used to be that way, though such knowledge was lost over the last 300 years. Since fights can occur at any range, why shouldn't a kung fu fighter be able to successfully defend himself from any position? Old school kung fu styles were surprisingly skilled at grappling and groundfighting, and a lot of the moves that the martial arts community calls "flowery" are actually grappling moves that are totally devastating to apply and defend against.

I have to say that in all my MA training we were taught standup grappling a la judo and most jujitsu, not ground science. As a Martial Artist who loves to study the differences in tactical science from one style to another, I can honestly say that nearly every style of CMA i've been exposed to has found rolling around on the ground distasteful to say the least. At the extreme, if you hit the ground in some styles you're considered ti have lost your fight anyway. I have never personally felt that way, but that's how I was taught most of my kung fu.

I know now that I have entire arsenals of standup technique that I can use on the ground, but previously I only knew anti-grappling techniques like "black dragon circles pillar". For ground fighting, I looked to plain old wrestling to fill that "gap". As a point of my personal evolution, I began to find that much of my Chin na worked within that framework as well. At any rate, groundfighting is really a competition art with no place in a street fight. Unless your attackers are going to get in a neat little line and wait their turn while you choke out the goof you're handling. If you meet people that dang stupid, you should feel ashamed for beating them up.

I have theorized that the lack of purely groundrange styles of kung fu can be attributed to the fact that most TMA's were extracted from battlefield techniques being taught in the military, and in that age if you ended up on the ground you were most likely a very dead man. Therefore, when the development of CMA's went to the civilian population the groundfighting was left out because they were so conditioned to avoid the ground that it was off limits. What I've been able to glean of the Ditang styles is that they are closer to japanese jujitsu styles than the Brazilian styles, I.E, although thery have ground science, they are meant to be standupo grappling styles. Southern Ditang in particular seems to specialize in taking an opponent down and keeping them there with an arsenal of kicks and tumbling strikes. This as opposed to a strictly grappling style.

[Uchi_deshi]

people talk about ground fighting alot on here...

i was wondering if the ground fight is the same as in some of the japanese stuff i learned.... meaning most of the stuff i learned for ground fighting is done the same way as if your standing up...

alot of the ground fightings is from breakfalls... and the aikido ground stuff is the samething as if your standing up....

do you think its same for kung fu ystems as well too...if i got to i might have to play with it and find out my self...

[GrandMaggot]

In kung fu, the mentality of what one does is more important than the raw mechanics of the moves as dictated in the set or by an "authority".

Here's the kung fu mentality. A guy who is attacked should be able to fight his way into or out of whatever position it takes to survive. So if you're a woman lying in bed and some stranger tries to rape you, you're not going to use any specific pre-arranged technique to stop him. You're going to struggle, bite, kick, and use leverage to get him (and his friends) off you.

When I ran my school, I deliberately had no mirrors. This was because I didn't want students looking at themselves in the mirror to check their form. I wanted students to FEEL the techniques as opposed to looking at them, as a technique can look right but feel totally wrong. This didn't sit well with a lot of people, which is partly why I don't have a school today. But I wouldn't have changed it in retrospect.

There are some solid kung fu ground maneuvers depicted in the Bubishi, though those are very rudimentary for teaching purposes. While the moves were tailored toward 19th century kung fu reality combat and thus not entirely applicable to today's situation, the mentality of being able to adjust to any situation is 100% there.

The ability to adjust to any kind of situation is far more effective than knowing specific techniques for specific counters. Traditional kung fu prides itself on its versatility against any kind of attack.

Keep in mind that MY version of kung fu is very different from most of which is practiced in today's world. So if I sound like I'm talking out of my butt, that's because I've had a very different training experience from most people from acknowledged styles. Still, just because my style isn't known doesn't mean that it sucks or doesn't work.

[TehBronco]

Thanks for responding on this stuff Onassis.
I love these kind of threads where the big boys get to speak their minds. We got some interesting and relevant discussions going on this forum.
Great analysis on BJJ guys, and yes everything is coming full circle O. The Gracies did what they did in the first UFC's because the stand up fighters were completely ignorant about grappling and totally unprepared to deal with a grappler. They had no clue what to expect and no strategy to avoid it. Now BJJ has become just another tool in a sportfighter's arsenal.
To clarify more about John Springer for those of you who don't want to read the humongously huge thread on Bullshido, the fight wasn't even meant to be about him. It was a challenge fight between Katherine Johnson aka "Kat" "Anna" (12th ranked female kickboxer in the world who had her expenses paid by bullshido for this fight) and Omar a Kung Fu guy from China ( American guy that has been living in China to study Kung Fu). John Springer was Omar's backup and he messed up the whole thing. He grabbed Anna by the throat and the Bullshido guy Jordan aka "Osiris" ran in to save her. You all saw what happened.
BTW both Anna, her lesbian girlfriend Ashley (who's also a kickboxer) and Osiris do drugs on a regular basis. Osiris is a guy who has been doing BJJ for two years and he's not that good at it plus he eats drugs all the time like most of the Bullshido staff.
Springer on the other hand was in the special forces in the Army and had some impressive credentials, all thoroughly veriffied by Bullshido hounds who tried to discredit him but couldn't.
He also attended some Bullshido throwdowns and the people were impressed with his skills as a stand up fighter. The problem is he is a major a**hole, jerk etc as seen on the videos. I had some unpleasant communications with him back in the day, horrible guy.
This whole thing was actually a setup from the Bullshido crowd so they could get to Springer. Another cocaine addict and Bullshido moderator named Anthony had a long time beef with Springer and paid Anna's expenses for this whole fight. Oh and Bullshido crew also had a gun in the car by their own admission. Cretin lowlives...pardon me.

[GrandMaggot]

I'm a martial arts junkie who keeps his finger on the pulse of what's happening in the martial arts world, and yet I've never even HEARD of "bullshido.com" and "John Springer" until I came here.

If I don't know - or even care all that much - the average person on the street wouldn't either.

[TehBronco]

I'm a martial arts junkie who keeps his finger on the pulse of what's happening in the martial arts world, and yet I've never even HEARD of "bullshido.com" and "John Springer" until I came here.

If I don't know - or even care all that much - the average person on the street wouldn't either.

Actually Bullshido.net is considered to be the premier Martial Arts forum, there is no larger MA forum hosting that many people anywhere on the net. It's huge and widely known. This WLE forum is a splinter compared to Bullshido. John Springer was also a member on Bullshido representing traditional martial arts on that forum. He was indeed someone that many traditional martial artists would get behind.
Being limited to the WLE forums and the few people we meet and know to draw conclusions on the martial arts world at large....hmm. I think you've been living in more of a Kung Fu bubble, especially since you think Kung Fu enjoys more popularity than MMA, which is totally false BTW.
Go to a forum like EmptyFlower that is one of the best traditional Kung Fu forums around, see the Kung Fu people's opinion on MMA and UFC. Most of those Kung Fu guys also train in a sport style, their basic idea is that Kung Fu alone will not be enough. Then tell me Kung Fu is more popular than MMA.

[GrandMaggot]

TehBronco, you're greatly mistaken if you think I live in a "kung fu bubble".

Unlike 99.9999% of the people on forums that don't even DO kung fu, let alone see other people, I have a very active correspondence with many martial artists on a near daily basis. I meet real instructors and real students all the time, touch with them, share stuff, and hang out. Kung fu doesn't exist on a keyboard for me or my fellow instructors.

Just because I have found out over the last 10 years that Internet fu is crap doesn't mean that I don't have a clue as to what's happening in kung fu. The percentage of people who do kung fu that actually involve themselves on the Internet is shockingly low. That's because real practitioners are too busy with their lives and with their training, though I'm an exception because this is my living and not my avocation.

One reason I don't hang around kung fu forums is because people don't even do "kung fu" the way I think of it. Of the forums, this one is the closest to what I'm doing and still my views are widely divergent because of my training. At the rate I'm going, I'm sure my time will be up soon here as well.

If you want to continue insisting that people aren't interested in kung fu just because it doesn't win in tournaments, go ahead. Meanwhile I'll keep teaching the people that ARE interested, and their numbers seem to be growing.

Your dismissal of my real life experiences as a professional sifu just because I haven't won a tournament is an exemplary application of this very double-standard that we're talking about.