Bagua Ground Fighting

[ironrogue]

Here is a link to a website that you can download Novell G. Bell (the black taoist) doing Bagua ground fighting. Enter the encription where it tells you to and wait 45 seconds and it will download. It is about 9 minutes long.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=3FEP30SE

[ken]

Interesting. More cursing than I would usually like. My question would be, for the grapplers: did he show anything that you didnt know already?

train hard
ken

[ironrogue]

Haha, yeah he does have a mouth on him. From my limited experience with mainstream grappling, a lot seems similar. He does things slightly different though. You could see the bagua in a lot of what he did though there was definitely some "freestyle" thrown in there. It's all body mechanics so it will look similar. Whatever system you use, an elbow still only bends one way, haha.

[ken]

There are many similarities. At our school a couple of brothers and I have been trying to see how our kung fu styles translate on the ground. We are finding similarities between all of them. In our playing around, creating space, crossing the center, control the hips has been important. You basically do the same thing with stand-up. You also do the same thing in wrestling and BJJ.

train hard
tigerklaw

[ironrogue]

Yes there are many similarities Ken. All of the trapping, sticking, etc. is all used there as well. Here is where it becomes difficult: grapplers allow for very little space when on the ground. If someone is on top but keeps a good amount of distance between their chest and yours, well its pretty easy to apply kung fu there. When they are right up on you keeping all of their weight on you, it gets more difficult. This is where experience and drilling becomes important. You need to know specific ways to create distance so that your training becomes relavent again. I am sure that you can apply kung fu when it is up close like that as well, but I have an easier time with more space.

[mindboxing]

Having a catch wrestling background I can say that what Novell teaches is absolute nonsense. I also really dislike the ghetto approach to the martial arts that he has. Mother****** every other other word he speaks...

Who are you going to use "Bagua Groundfighting" against?
Your average untrained street thug will not try to grapple with you.
And if you come across someone who is trained in real grappling and you try to use crappling ghetto style then you are toast.
Why does everyone insist on inventing their own grappling? Why not just learn the basics of an established style?

[ironrogue]

"I also really dislike the ghetto approach to the martial arts that he has. Mother****** every other other word he speaks..."

Whats wrong with being from the ghetto. If you get the chance to email him, do so. You will find out that he is quite a decent guy with quite a bit of knowledge.

"Who are you going to use "Bagua Groundfighting" against?"

Anybody who tries to grapple with you.

"Your average untrained street thug will not try to grapple with you."

How many street fights have you been a part of? I know that the fights ive been in and have seen usually include some type of grappling if someone with no training is involved. Untrained people get rocked and out of fear they start grabbing on to try to control you. This is where it hits the ground. Granted we would all hope that our skills can keep us off the ground but you better not expect that or you may get tapped.

"And if you come across someone who is trained in real grappling and you try to use crappling ghetto style then you are toast."

I'll try to get the vid up pretty soon but it is a vid of BT grappling with a bjj guy. it starts out with bt taking the guy down and then it restarts with the guy having full mount on bt(it was for him to work on) and he works his way out of it and eventually submitted the guy.

"Why does everyone insist on inventing their own grappling? Why not just learn the basics of an established style?"

He isn't inventing anything. Grappling is a part of most styles. Most people just dont emphasis or even acknowledge it. BT is just keeping his style real.

[mindboxing]

Whats wrong with being from the ghetto. If you get the chance to email him, do so. You will find out that he is quite a decent guy with quite a bit of knowledge.

Nothing wrong with being from the ghetto, I am from the ghetto! He's just got a little bit of a thuggish attitude. What bothers me is the constant swearing: mother-f this, mother-f that. It ain't cool no matter where you're from.
Would like to meet the brother though.

Anybody who tries to grapple with you.

May work against someone who has no real grappling skill but against a wrestler or grappler?
See to be honest I don't even believe there is such a thing as Bagua Grappling or groundfighting, I think these cats are making half that stuff up.

How many street fights have you been a part of?

Man I been in a few serious ones, not that it matters, from what I've seen anything can happen. Once I punched this guy in the face a few times and months after that he blindsided me and hit me with a piece of wood in the back. Thank God it could have been a rock over the head or a bullet in the back. I saw this gang fight once where this guy was wielding a piece of wood with nails in it. You right, anything can and does happen.

He isn't inventing anything. Grappling is a part of most styles. Most people just dont emphasis or even acknowledge it. BT is just keeping his style real.

I mean in the sense that he takes stand up stuff and he just applies it on the ground, I don't think it was intended like that. I'd rather do with stuff that was designed for the ground.
I would like to grapple with one of these Bagua guys and see for myself.

[NJM]

Whats wrong with being from the ghetto. If you get the chance to email him, do so. You will find out that he is quite a decent guy with quite a bit of knowledge.

Nothing wrong with being from the ghetto, I am from the ghetto! He's just got a little bit of a thuggish attitude. What bothers me is the constant swearing: mother-f this, mother-f that. It ain't cool no matter where you're from.
Would like to meet the brother though.

Anybody who tries to grapple with you.

May work against someone who has no real grappling skill but against a wrestler or grappler?
See to be honest I don't even believe there is such a thing as Bagua Grappling or groundfighting, I think these cats are making half that stuff up.

How many street fights have you been a part of?

Man I been in a few serious ones, not that it matters, from what I've seen anything can happen. Once I punched this guy in the face a few times and months after that he blindsided me and hit me with a piece of wood in the back. Thank God it could have been a rock over the head or a bullet in the back. I saw this gang fight once where this guy was wielding a piece of wood with nails in it. You right, anything can and does happen.

He isn't inventing anything. Grappling is a part of most styles. Most people just dont emphasis or even acknowledge it. BT is just keeping his style real.

I mean in the sense that he takes stand up stuff and he just applies it on the ground, I don't think it was intended like that. I'd rather do with stuff that was designed for the ground.
I would like to grapple with one of these Bagua guys and see for myself.

Considering BT is ridiculed for making stuff up, especially grappling stuff, I agree with mindboxing.

h1dd3n 1n t3h f0rm5

[mindboxing]

So I'm not the only one who thinks that Novell is into "creating", see that's not what keepin it real is

[ironrogue]

"Nothing wrong with being from the ghetto, I am from the ghetto! He's just got a little bit of a thuggish attitude. What bothers me is the constant swearing: mother-f this, mother-f that. It ain't cool no matter where you're from.
Would like to meet the brother though."

I can understand your problem with the language. I am from Utah and live in a pretty conservative society so I have had to curb my tongue quite a few times to keep the peace.

"Man I been in a few serious ones, not that it matters, from what I've seen anything can happen. Once I punched this guy in the face a few times and months after that he blindsided me and hit me with a piece of wood in the back. Thank God it could have been a rock over the head or a bullet in the back. I saw this gang fight once where this guy was wielding a piece of wood with nails in it. You right, anything can and does happen."

None of that sounds like any fun, lol.

"I mean in the sense that he takes stand up stuff and he just applies it on the ground, I don't think it was intended like that. I'd rather do with stuff that was designed for the ground.
I would like to grapple with one of these Bagua guys and see for myself."

I dont believe that is what he is doing. He is taking principles that are universal and applying them and his skills on the ground. I have been through this before on other posts but; sensetivity, body alignment, power, speed, hip control, etc apply everywhere. Nomatter what range you are in, an elbow bends only one way.

"Considering BT is ridiculed for making stuff up, especially grappling stuff, I agree with mindboxing."

I have heard him ridiculed many times but never for making stuff up. Can you cite anything? or do you remember anything? I haven't heard of it.

[Shaolin Warrior]

Bagua is a multi-dimensional form of combat based on Daoist philosophies. If the art is based on yin/yang principles, doesn't it stand to reason that all that is applicable standing up would be just as applicable on the ground?? The same holds true for all CMA. I mean, as far as I know my spine is still my spine , my legs are still my legs and my hands are still my hands lying down or standing up.I have been using ALL of my CMA on the ground for years, especially Chin Na. I have never heard, except from those not in the know, that Chin Na was only applicable standing up.

[raipizo]

i am thinking that chin na is basically like the arm bars etc pulled on ufc on the ground in that sense eh?

[Dong Xiao Hu]

Novell Bell Is a linage master in bagua. Bagua is known for its experimentations of the priceples that's why we have so many differnt styles like Cheng bagua which uses alot of shuai jiao and yin style which uses alot of lohan chuan. Dong Hai chuan was said to have taught Bagua as an advanced system. meaning you were not taught Bagua and is principles unless you were proficient in another style first. CMA dose not have a ground fighting stystem but the systems can be aplied there, you just have to know what to look for.

[ironrogue]

First of all, I want to clarify. Novell Bell is not a lineage holder in anything. He has trained with some very good masters though. He also has a background in judo as well as currently trains with jitsu players and mma fighters quite a bit.

Secondly, all this talk doesn't mean anything if you dont train it. You can talk about aplying chin na and principles on the ground all you want, but unless you train it against full resisting skilled grapplers, you wont be able to aply it. It is the same thing as standing in that there are principles and techniques to aply there but you must actually practice them for them to work. How do you learn to ride a bike? you ride a bike. How do you learn to skateboard? you skateboard. How do you learn gymnastics? You do gymnastics. How do you learn how to fight? You fight. How do you learn how to aply these concepts on the ground? You aply these concepts on the ground. There is a reason why bjj guys can aply everything they practice on the ground without a doubt. They practice full resistance on the ground every day.

Thirdly, there are big differences between standing and being on the ground. The structure you used standing wont work there as your base has changed. Your striking power has to come from somewhere else now as well. The types of joint locks are many more now as well because of how close the bodies are. This all can be learned though if you just take bjjers advice and train on the ground. I personally work out with both bjj and wrestlers on the ground on a regular basis and all I use is straight internal chinese martial arts. Sometimes I do well, sometimes i get my ass kicked. But it is only because I train with them that I can use those arts effectively on the ground.

If you think just theorising about this and maybe testing some moves on your fellow kung fu class mates constitutes knowing how to move on the ground, I dont know how to make it any clearer to you. Get your arses to a bjj or wrestling gym a couple days a week for a few months and you'll know what I am talking about. lol

Lastly, lol, research judo's pinning techniques and consider the structure they use here as it aplys to kung fu's structure. I have found much help in this.