“Adapting to Grappling” by cross training the art

[Paul123]

“Adapting to Grappling” by cross training the art, instead of the individual.

Check this series out (there are 6 parts)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y-Cun2iBcs

I like their approach to dealing with grappling.
Here is a clear case of “cross training the art instead of the individual.”

I’m not a fan of cross training (learning skill sets that run counter to what my martial art is attempting to do) ......... until I have exhausted all avenues that lie within my art to deal with the problem!

With grappling everything is about positioning (can’t get a submission without position!) Look how these guys while on the ground have learned to use positioning to strike instead of grapple

It made me think “what can be done applying an Eagle claw”, Tiger or Snake in a similar fashion.

Comments? anyone?

[Tom R]

In theory, I certainly agree that every art contains the answer to everything through application of its principles. For example, BSL doesn't traditionally contain roundhouse kicks, but it isn't hard to apply BSL concepts to them. I think the reason for this universality, at the risk of sounding cliche, is because the human body only works in so many different ways. Two styles can have different approaches (BSL vs. Wing Tsun) or they can have different foci (BSL vs. wrestling), but it's all just "martial arts."

From a practical point of view, though, there's no advantage in reinventing the wheel. And that's exactly what you'll end up doing if you struggle to create a new grappling style out of the principles of your striking style. My way - and it may not be everyone's way - is to explore new styles whose focus is different from mine and then see how it fits in with my BSL concepts. This way, I get the practical techniques and it fits in with "my" style.

Remaining pure of outside influence is impossible in the realm of fighting. When the style encounters a new climate (like that of today versus the martial climate of 100 years ago), it reacts and adapts or it becomes outdated. A fighting program that has no response to a roundhouse or a double-leg takedown is frankly obsolete in fighting competitions today. In this way, "purity" and effectiveness are mutually exclusive. Influence from outside styles is unavoidable because it, at the very least, forces your style to find answers - either within or outside itself. Anti-grappling is not a traditional training method. It's a modern response to the current game.

The bottom line comes down to training, as it always does. You'll never learn to defend against a good grappler without training against a good grappler. Imagine a wrestler trying to find striking within his style by practicing against other clueless punchers. I practiced WT for a while, including some of the anti-grappling you've mentioned. In theory, it's not bad, but since none of my training partners knew how to grapple at all, I had no chance in gaining skill with those tools. The techniques that I retain from those programs are the ones I actually tried and learned how to use while working with people who could actually shoot. It should also be noted that positioning to strike is much easier than positioning to submit, but you're still in the grappler's realm. If you stick an arm out to punch or claw or whatever, as easy as it may seem, expect to be offering your arm for submission.

Kung fu styles today are what they are because of cross-training. How many styles have the same genesis story? "Master ABC took the best parts of styles X, Y, and Z to create style Omega." Wing Chun, Choy Li Fut, Jow Gar, etc. all share this. Cross-training isn't a bad thing, and if both groups of techniques work, they can hardly be said to be in conflict. At most, it's just different approach or different focus. In my opinion, you would make the most out of your style by cross-training, like the man who created "anti-grappling," and then examine how the new techniques fit into your main style's principles.

[Paul123]

The first time I watched the vid's at a particular point I was expecting an cross arm lock (Juji-gatame in Judo)..Nope instead, he trapped the arm (pushed it towards and down onto his opponent) and delivered strikes ( chain punches) from a point of advantage. From my judo experience, I would have been expecting the cross arm lock... and took measures to combat that attempt...such as pulling and bending my arm and rolling into the lock (if it wasn’t set). This would have only made matters worse if I was the opponent in the vid.

I was impressed how it was all done with a Wing Chun outlook

I thought wow! “Now there’s a smart way of using your art (skill sets that one has already mastered)

IMO he/they have cross-trained their art against some form of submission wrestling. Instead of concentrating on learning the skills needed for applying arm bars/joint locks etc .....it looks to me like they advanced their skill set of trapping and striking where the grappler would apply a submission. Obviously in order to do this they had to train in conditions where submissions where in play…

I agree....Can’t learn to counter anything unless you have studied it… but IMO too many throw out the baby with the bath water when they cross train.......

[Tom R]

True. The "baby" in the kung fu tub is more valuable than many think. And I in no way advocate abandoning your "home" style in favor of whatever is popular. I just mean that it would probably be more valuable to study with somebody who can already grapple - whether it be within your style or outside - and then bring it inside and make the connections. As I mentioned before, this is how Anti-grappling came to Wing Tsun. And I agree that it achieves what you're talking about.

The main flaws I see with the Anti-Grappling program in Wing Tsun are, (1) since they don't learn actual grappling techniques and submissions, they're no better off than anyone else at countering said submissions. Also, a trained grappler will be much more proficient at positioning. I don't think the program adequately takes talented grapplers into account. Just your average Joe if a brawl ends up on the floor. And, (2) the training is inadequate in terms of time and skilled attackers. Practicing a few techniques once or twice a month, slowly, against terrible shoots like the ones in that video you linked, won't really get you any closer to grappling than someone who doesn't practice Anti-Grappling at all.

I think it's useful, but only for the very few people who pursue it religiously. It's a good idea, but a student's time will likely be better spent actually learning to grapple - instead of half-assing it - then tying it all together once the basic principles of grappling are understood. Anti-Grappling gives people a lot of theory and food for thought, but theory doesn't win any fights. Sifu told me that some students say to him that they know the technique in their heads, but they couldn't get it down in practice. His response was that they didn't really know the techniques at all.

My point is that grappling in a BJJ class or a kung fu class is immaterial. Mat time against skilled opponents is what matters. I think it's clear which class is more likely to give you what you need to actually develop ability.

[Paul123]

Tom , I agree with everything you have said.


That said, there are guys out there (pros and non-pros) that have developed some unique ways of dealing with the takedown.

People like… Liddell (being the outstanding wrestler he is) has developed a unique approach.

Yet…I’m still of the opinion that if MMA when back to unlimited time (no rounds) and didn’t stand guys up…(for the sake of excitement for the fans) submission wrestling/jujitsu would be even more prominent

What do you think?

[ogrelee]

My experience is that ground fighting is only good for mano-a-mano fights. And frankly, I haven't had many of those . Most of my fighting experience is RL fighting, which generally means that If I end up on the ground wrestling with one guy, the other two step in and start kicking me in the face . Not good.

Simply put, Most of the guys you are going to tangle with and go to ground with are experienced only so far as H.S. wrestling programs. As RL martial artists, training to beat these guys is definitely easier than training to beat Ruas or Liddell. I really don't care what people say, these are grappling competitions, with rules skewed to grappling. Not surprising, since the genre was invented by a BJJ wrestling school. On the street, smaller or less experienced fighters aren't going to attack you unless there are more of them, and most of them are only going to try to hold you for long enough for the others to beat you senseless.

Reality check- having the ability to choke a fighter out in 15 seconds will do you a fat lot of good against 2 men with knives in a dark, glass covered alley. One of the men will have 15 seconds to stab the crap out of you, even if you do manage to disarm the one you're choking, as you roll around in the broken, filthy glass. Royce Gracie would bleed too.

With that in mind, Let me point out that anti-grappling is essential to a martial artist who wants to be able to protect him or herself outside a ring. Even a BJJ specialist will come across circumstances where going to ground will get him or her hurt very badly. If he trains only for the dojo, he'll get hurt eventually.

This is the real world truth, even if we don't like it. I studied jujitsu so that I'd have a ground game, and discovered that it only did me any good in a ring. Kung fu is not meant for sport. Lest we forget, most of the techniques we learn are unsuitable for sport fighting. That's the reality of it. I've met very few straight grapplers that could beat me on the street. My current main technique is a skull crushing palm that requires only one hand bracing to be effective. I only need to hit once. Even a glancing blow will cause damage that will win a fight. Before that, I'd mastered a series of koppo blows utilizing my chinese Iron palm to break arms, thighs, and ribs. Mainly, the large bones were my targets. I guess you could say I specialize in debilitating strikes.

No-holds barred means nothing to me. I've had lots of martial brothers that could beat me in a straight shoot in a ring, but knew I'd take them apart in a real street fight, were I could use my claws and palms. Not a single one would give me a head shot for free, which is how I look at a two leg shoot. Take away the restrictions and I will win.

Now, don't get me wrong. If you want to compete in semi-friendly matches in MMA, it'd be a good idea to have ground skills. As in all arts, when you crosstrain, you need to find a connecting thread to create a synergistic whole. I consider the guard positions to be stances. And I remember- the grappling range is the grappling range whether you're standing, sitting, or lying on your back on the ground. I use the wrestling kinetics to generate my power, but that doesn't invalidate the techniques.
Try using a hand joint splitting technique on a grappler. See whether being on the ground makes it less effective.
I do know that few things freak out a grappler like having a supposedly standup fighter take them to the ground using techniques they thought you didn't know . Of course, in a ring we generally assume our opponent has skills related to the competition. As a standup fighter, having ground skills means less in a competition setting. Especially since Maurice Smith gave the ground fighters a wakeup call.

"Effective in all ranges." Let that guide you, but remember, If you study lethal technologies, you will still lose in a competition setting. If you want to compete, you need to master a large libray of non lethal technologies. Iron Palm can win ground fights from the top guard easily. But you won't win a competition with it .

If you want to compete in mma using TCMA as your base, you need to have a transitional set of techniques from standing to rolling, to full on ground fighting. I suggest Ditang or Gou quan style. This should give you a way to go from stand up, to throwing, to ground fighting in TCMA, to groundfighting in another style.(BJJ or whatever.) This will also give you techniques for escaping and getting back to your feet. In other words, a mastery of all ranges.
If you want to use mostly stand up fighting, you have to master the gap. You have to control it. It's not a simple as it sounds. This is a very involved science, encompassing timing and frequency, distance and sensitivity, and a half dozen other rather esoteric skills that are difficult to train in.

[Uchi_deshi]

im going by experence and from what im told by my teachers....

most martial arts masters will tell you to cross train...reason being it will help you understand it in a different way....

pluss it will give you an understanding into martial arts as a whole

doing it will help you understand your primary arts grappiling... it gives you a base line to work with

but with the old kung fu it was different they wanted you to master 1 before you go to another or so... but they all wanted you to do it....

by the way there are only 50 jiu-jitsu schools in the world and only 1 or 2 is in the states...and being it is a japanese art.... any others are fakes

[jeff]

I'm going to have to completely agree with ogrelee here! Personally for me and my style of study, what he says is true! Grapplers don't like to hear that much, but then again...we don't like to hear that kung fu is crap.

Well said Ogrelee!

Thanks,
-Jeff

[SouthernFist]

+2 on what Ogrelee said ! In a real street fight their are no rules!! If you are good and very proficient in your skills and abilities a fight should last a few seconds. If it goes beyond that and ends up on the Ground then you might be in for the fight of your life! Thats when you take a bite off the dudes ear or as he's Shooting/Taking you down your thumb is in his eye and Thats the Truth ! And if your that good and Confident then you simply Smile and walk away!!Plus what ya gonna do when he desides to pump some hot Lead into you!!

[ogrelee]

Probably get shot !

I would say run like heck, but I started my foray into martial arts because I'm a dang slow runner!
My curse.... I should've done qing gong, or lum gon, or byaakujitsu, the land flying stuff. Luckily, my head's stupendously hard, so standing and fighting was the one thing I could do well.

You know the saying, no brain, no pain! No pain, no gain! Practicing spearhands in mud until my fingernails came off and my mother yelled at me, and even now, studying with herniated disks, I must be insane.

Insane, but still a slow runner.

[ogrelee]

BTW, in my posts above, I mentioned the dog fist and ground styles of China. I've only been able to glean small fractions of the usage of those techniques from demo's and such. Still, the techniques use Chinese mechanics, making them easier to adapt to a ground game.

My ground game itself consists of techniques and science from BJJ and traditional ju-jitsu. While I have absolutely no doubt that China has some ground fighting styles that specialize in ground techniques, I do not know of any in common usage. Even the ones I mention, although they have the techniques, They do not specialize in them, they are stopgap.

When My nieces and nephews and the various people I've taught through the years start teaching what I taught them, It'll be real fighting skills, mainly chinese, and it'll have a ground game.
I wonder what they'll call it?

[GrandMaggot]

Old world kung fu is FILLED with grappling content for all contexts.

That's why styles like baji and pigua are very simple, have extremely short forms, and don't have a lot of moves. Those moves are meant to be applicable in all sorts of settings.

The biggest trap kung fu fighters fall into is trying to apply the exact form to reality combat. More often than not, the forms teach reflexes and conditioning as opposed to combinations (which never work in reality combat) and specific moves (which also don't work in real fights).

[ogrelee]

Old world kung fu is FILLED with grappling content for all contexts.

That's why styles like baji and pigua are very simple, have extremely short forms, and don't have a lot of moves. Those moves are meant to be applicable in all sorts of settings.

The biggest trap kung fu fighters fall into is trying to apply the exact form to reality combat. More often than not, the forms teach reflexes and conditioning as opposed to combintions (which never work in reality combat) and specific moves (which also don't work in real fights).

While I agree that old world kung fu is filled with grappling, there are any number of styles that work specifically in the ground range, a range that MOST traditional arts, be they Japanese, chinese, phillipino, or indian do not actually do their work in. Modern ground arts have taken the traditional ground arts to a whole new level. The problem is that even the arts that specifically trained ground fighting did not stress taking an opponent to the ground and keeping him there, since that would mean dying on the ground in a real (as in battlefield) situation. Keep in mind that ground arts aren't very realistic for street use, only in packs and in one on one challenge fights.

As a kung fu practitioner who has spent special attention to my Chin Na grappling skills in all ranges, I can honestly say that my experiences have led me to the conclusion that we (and most traditional arts for that matter) lack much of the science that allows BJJ, and for that matter Jiujitsu, to control the ground game. They quite simply have a better grasp of the tactics of the environment, along with the ability to match our manipulations one for one.

As much as I hate to say it, someone who specializes in ground fighting will beat someone who specializes in standup- if the fight goes to ground. Of course, the opposite is true, too.

What this means is that between equally skilled Martial Artists with backgrounds in Kung Fu and BJJ who fight, the ability to control the gap would be the single most important deciding factor. If the fight remains vertical, the standup fighter would likely win. If it goes horizontal, the ground fighter would likely win.

My Chin Na grappling skills do still work on the ground, and I feel confident against any folk style wrestler. But Folk style wrestling is not half as well developed as the ground arts with japanese roots, Jiujitsu Judo or BJJ. These were developed with battlefield sciences in mind, much more complex than folk wrestling. With this in mind, I'm trying to use the ground science of BJJ with my Kung Fu skills. Frankly, I'm only interested in countering these techniques, not mastering the whole gamut. These sciences give me a framework to place my arts into. There are a lot of standard chin na that work very well on the ground, and even more that open the user up for attack by an experienced ground artist.

The keys here are A: be familiar with the environment and what works. B: Know how win in the environment and how to escape from it, and C: know how to fight someone that relies on that environment. For me, that means steal their knowledge and use it against them.

GM, the biggest trap any martial artist can fall into is the superior art trap. There is always a superior method, Never fail to look beyond your primary art for answers, and in Kung fu that means bring home what you learn and fold it in. With hard work and tons of practice, forms can indeed be used in combat, but only when the opponent is unfamiliar with them or distracted by a primary technique.

As Pan Qing once said,"The best way to perform a chin na on a suspecting opponent is to hit him in the face, then do the chin na quickly."

[GrandMaggot]

You haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg when it comes to reality ground grappling from kung fu, ogrelee.

The stuff I learned and teach is the kind of stuff that non-closed door disciples just aren't exposed to. Just because Japanese arts excel in the ring doesn't mean that kung fu "lacks the science to control the ground game". My students and I would attest that it's not so easy to ground dominate a kung fu man if one does a Japanese-based grappling art. We've seen virtually every kind of grappling attack thrown at us, both in the classroom and in the street.

If you look at an art like Muay Thai, you'll notice that their pre-fight routines are filled with strange looking moves. Those moves are actually GRAPPLING MOVES that derive from the parent style of Muay Thai called "Muay Baran". And "Muay Baran" has its roots in Fukien White Crane and Monk Fist, as those moves are taught verbatim in those two older Chinese styles as GRAPPLING MOVES. Some Muay Baran masters in Thailand still teach the old grappling moves, though many of the technology has been lost over the generations.

Granted, most practitioners (including many traditional sifu) are no longer aware of these methods. But that doesn't mean that they don't exist or aren't being taught.

Keep in mind that Japanese based grappling arts are ALL tournament arts with rules, with absolutely no exceptions. Traditional japanese jujitsu is the closest thing out there to reality combat, but it's mainly an "Do X against Y" art that doesn't account for when things don't go exactly as prescribed in the waza. Kodokan judo, which BJJ is a watered down version of, is filled with tons of rules for the tournaments. Even aikido is filled with tons of rules (and am I the only guy on the planet who isn't the least bit impressed with Morihei Ueshiba tossing around his ultra-compliant students on video???) The modern Japanese arts like shootfighting and pancrase are also tournament arts, not reality combat arts.

I cannot emphasize how reality grappling and tournament grappling are not the same and are actually OPPOSITE. Same with reality striking and tournament stand up fighting. The biggest mistake that gets trained martial artists beat up in real fights is reflexively applying their ring rules to the street. One of my kung fu students who's a bouncer told me last week that one of his fellow bouncers (BJJ trained) was fired for overaggressively injuring a client during a bar altercation.

One can DIE in reality combat if he applies tournament training and mentality to real fights. People doing tournament arts get nailed when they're confronted with situations that their tournament rules protected them from. Don't be like my 300 lb jujitsu friend who got badly bitten from underneath by a much smaller guy that had no training.