Double standard for kung fu.

[TehBronco]

TehBronco, you're greatly mistaken if you think I live in a "kung fu bubble".

Unlike 99.9999% of the people on forums that don't even DO kung fu, let alone see other people, I have a very active correspondence with many martial artists on a near daily basis. I meet real instructors and real students all the time, touch with them, share stuff, and hang out. Kung fu doesn't exist on a keyboard for me or my fellow instructors.

Just because I have found out over the last 10 years that Internet fu is crap doesn't mean that I don't have a clue as to what's happening in kung fu. The percentage of people who do kung fu that actually involve themselves on the Internet is shockingly low. That's because real practitioners are too busy with their lives and with their training, though I'm an exception because this is my living and not my avocation.

One reason I don't hang around kung fu forums is because people don't even do "kung fu" the way I think of it. Of the forums, this one is the closest to what I'm doing and still my views are widely divergent because of my training. At the rate I'm going, I'm sure my time will be up soon here as well.

If you want to continue insisting that people aren't interested in kung fu just because it doesn't win in tournaments, go ahead. Meanwhile I'll keep teaching the people that ARE interested, and their numbers seem to be growing.

Your dismissal of my real life experiences as a professional sifu just because I haven't won a tournament is an exemplary application of this very double-standard that we're talking about.

Hard truth is that MMA has taken the world by storm and established itself as the standard. If you however seem to think that Kung Fu is doing better than MMA out there when Kung Fu schools are closing down for lack of students and MMA, BJJ, Muay Thai gyms are full and popping up all over the place then I can only assume that you live in a Kung Fu bubble. Which is really not that bad, it just means you train hard in your Kung Fu and you're uninformed on what's happening in the martial world at large. The problem comes when you start claiming something that just isn't true, like: Kung Fu is doing better and enjoying more popularity than MMA which is nonsense.
Nobody said you have to leave this forum or this is how you deal with the smallest bit of disagreement you encounter? You should at least accept that other people see things differently.
And finally, I haven't dismissed your real life experiences as a Sifu, but the truth is that's what they are YOUR experiences. Even if I knew you personally I have no idea if you've really been in all the street fights that you claim you've been in. Much less hearing stories on the internet... of course that they are questioned and they don't hold much water.
This conversation was about Kung Fu, not you or me, and I tried looking at the issue from all angles and I gave the other view credit where credit was due. And credit is due.

[GrandMaggot]

You need to go out and open a gym.

Live life, see what it's like to do martial arts your way. Show the world how you are right in your views.

If you truly know better than I do because I'm "in a bubble" like you think I am, then you'll be more successful than me in the martial arts. Then I'll come visit your school and I'll pay my respects.

[ogrelee]

Bullshido.com is indeed a very large forum. But as far as I'm concerned the biggest voices are among the lowest morals and ethics in the martial world. Simply completely taken in by there own spoutings and MA jingoism. I was challenged by one of their own on the dungeons and dragons boards in a thread concerning Ki mechanics in the game. I went to the site to find out what it was about, and found it downright distasteful. 'Nuff said.

Allow me to point out that what we call MMA in the arena could be called Kung Fu on the street. Twi-Da-Shuai-Chin na. The four methods- Kick, punch, throw and grapple. A complete martial art that encompasses all ranges, a mixed martial art. It really is complete, and normally If you have a combat issue it's been addressed by one style or another. This is a boon with one caveat- most styles have a broad range of specialty rather than a narrow range. While most can be applied to any combat situation, they don't fair well in non-combat, narrowly focused arenas.
Don't fool yourself into believing that because a style of sport art does better in a tightly controlled habitat that it will fair at all well on the street in the total absence of rules and judges.

Sorry you two don't see eye-to-eye, but allow me to point out that I don't have a school iether, and I despise the gym scene. And I don't see how this moves the subject of the post forward, Iether. Like I said in another thread, GM, i find a distinct difference between fighters and MA. Bullshido is just full of fighters, but dismally short on MA. See my point?

Tehbronco, to be blunt, kung fu should give you a meaning in your life, a goal to strive toward that has nothing to do with how effective it is in combat. That should appear as a side effect of your mastery of self. By forging yourself in the crucible of overcoming self imposed limitations, you become a stronger, more dangerous warrior with perfect control of your techniques and sar chi, your deadly intent.

[TehBronco]

You need to go out and open a gym.

Live life, see what it's like to do martial arts your way. Show the world how you are right in your views.

If you truly know better than I do because I'm "in a bubble" like you think I am, then you'll be more successful than me in the martial arts. Then I'll come visit your school and I'll pay my respects.

Mark has locked the other thread because you turned it into a personal dispute. You still don't get it: It was never about you GM, we were talking Kung Fu in today's world. I see now that you are a small man not only literally but figuratively as well.
When did I say YOU lied about your street fighting stories? I explained to you that such stories are anecdotal evidence and are RIGHTLY not considered valid proof of a style's effectiveness.
You started with personal insults which clearly show that you have some deep personal insecurities. That's all there is to it.

[mark]

Mark has locked the other thread because you turned it into a personal dispute. ........

...and I am about to lock this one as well. Please agree to disagree and move on.

[hasayfu]

It’s good to see people passionate about their views but as si-hing Mark has said, we need to remember we are all brothers in the art and while it’s ok to disagree, it’s NOT ok to get personal about it.

Allow me to summarize the positions because I do think there are good points in this thread. I’ll also add my thoughts

1) Double standard. Yes there is one. Get over it. You are asking why people in a non-KF format don’t give KF any props. It’s not their world. It’s easier to say that a KF player won on a fluke then to really understand it. At the same time, look around. Early UFCs were dominated by BJJ and just big people (Tank Abbott). Now, you have stand up fighters winning along side with ground fighters. This is happening in a format designed to be advantageous to the grappler. .

2) KF and ground fighting. We may have to disagree on this one but I think TCMA never developed good ground techniques. Everyone throws the saying, “Ti, Da, Shuai, Na” But you don’t see NA developed into ground submission. Mainly stand up. Look at San Shou, it allows for very little (if any) ground submission. People just didn’t think to stay on the ground back then. For a host of reasons.

3) KF evolution. Traditional CMA constantly evolved to the environment. Look at Hung Gar. The forms are a mix of ideas that are folded into a unifying strategy and core principles. While I think it would be hard pressed to imagine Wong Fei Hong going for the shoot, I can easily imagine him defending against it and incorporating techniques to either get up quickly or end it on the ground. This is consistent with HG core principles. So while I don’t think ground fighting was ever developed in the past, that doesn’t mean it can’t be added.

4) The martial world looks down on Kung Fu – Both GM and TB are right here. In the tournament world, KF gets no respect. This goes along the lines of #1 above. This makes sense. To get good at a tournament format, you need to train the format. Why do all the other stuff tied to Kung Fu? Why do Iron anything because it can’t be used in any known format today.

At the same time, who cares? Sure it’s a blow to the ego to hear people say what you do is BS. If what you want is recognition, you need to go to a format that will have clear winners. Let’s look at the total opposite extreme. Contemporary Wushu and XMA. These are HUGELY popular participant sports. Way more then any NHB/MMA from a participation level. Why? Because you can gain recognition. You know, a lot of the same attitude that the MMAs give to KF, Traditionalists give to the wushu folks. Think about that.

5) Kung fu schools are not as popular now. Compared to what? The 70s when everyone was kung fu fighting? I think the 70s was an aberration due to Bruce Lee. Kung Fu was never meant to be a group thing. Even in Hong Kong’s hey day, KF was taught individually. Very rarely was it taught in a group. Sifu talks about 60 people taking lessons. SiGung would instruct each person one at a time and tell them to WORK on it. That’s kung fu.

That said, KF is still popular. In my area, there are 5 thriving kung fu schools within a mile of each other. I don’t follow many of the seminars but I see that Lam Chun Fai and Chiu Chi Ling can still hold seminars that attract hundreds of people.

I could go on but I’m probably boring most of you so I’ll stop and see if we can have heated but productive discussion.

[ogrelee]

Hasayfu, I agree with everything you said. But up here in the North East, it was karate in the seventies. Why? No idea. But I do know that a lot of karate schools sold themselves as kung fu as well. It was as if the two were interchangeable, and was that way until the late seventies up here. Then I think in the late seventies and early eighties there was a bit of backlash as people became educated about the difference and the popularity of Kung fu accelerated into the eighties. Oddly, I think that the kung fu schools were riding the ninja craze while a lot of the american Karate instructors just about completely missed it. No clue, I guess.

As for the evolution of kung fu, I know a few chin na can be used on the ground, and like I said before, that's on account of the universal usefulness of some chin na, not because kung fu is loaded with groundfighting. I said:

I have theorized that the lack of purely groundrange styles of kung fu can be attributed to the fact that most TMA's were extracted from battlefield techniques being taught in the military, and in that age if you ended up on the ground you were most likely a very dead man. Therefore, when the development of CMA's went to the civilian population the groundfighting was left out because they were so conditioned to avoid the ground that it was off limits. What I've been able to glean of the Ditang styles is that they are closer to japanese jujitsu styles than the Brazilian styles, I.E, although thery have ground science, they are meant to be standupo grappling styles. Southern Ditang in particular seems to specialize in taking an opponent down and keeping them there with an arsenal of kicks and tumbling strikes. This as opposed to a strictly grappling style.

'Nuff said.

[Uchi_deshi]

i can say for here japanese and korean martial arts was the only thing around from the 70'-80's...

very few kung fu school's... the ones i did found were crap... even today you dont see too much of true kung fu in the states unless your around it... even in the movies or much of any thing...

personnel id love to see more even in a fight or a movie...but if you think about it maybe just give it time and kung fu will break through and become top...

[TehBronco]

I wasn't talking as much about "popular" in the sense that it's famous, but rather how Kung Fu is seen as a fighting style. How it's seen as far as combat effectiveness goes.
Kung Fu schools not being as popular...I mean it in the sense that folks don't see Kung Fu as a very effective art for real fighting so they take up Muay Thai or MMA. And yeah, there will always be a good customer base for Kung Fu schools: old people, children,women and some men who are interested more in the art aspect and not so much in combat...but when it comes to folks who have it in them to become warriors they will most likely hit the MMA or Muay Thai gym because they just don't see Kung Fu as a good combat style, not until they see it prove itself consistently in the ring like all the other styles do. Not to mention that there are a lot of bad schools out there that have nothing to offer.
MA's like XMA might enjoy some popularity but it's a show. It's all fluff and acrobatics and people know exactly what they're getting. People don't think that you could fly through the air and blast people with fancy kicks, they are aware that it's acrobatics.
Kung Fu and groundfigthing...well if you have the extra time and money to crosstrain in something like BJJ I don't see why not. I'm not opposed to groundfighting in any way shape or form. I think it will improve your Kung Fu and help you develop your anti grappling skills, like the saying "You learn antigrappling by studying grappling". For the street where we have knives and multiple assailants it's not a good idea though.

And finally we must always agree to disagree and respect each other even if we have different views and the discussion gets a little heated. Heated is good, as long as it doesn't degenerate into the GM thing.

[TehBronco]

Hasayfu, I agree with everything you said. But up here in the North East, it was karate in the seventies. Why? No idea.

It was because of the way people saw it. The whole propaganda of movies, and all the stories about the deadly fighters from the East and their superhuman abilities. People bought into the razzle dazzle because they simply didn't know any better and had nothing to compare it to.
People's mentality was "Well if Sensei Parker or Chuck Norris says it then it must be true"
The UFC changed the martial arts world forever in the USA. The whole establishment was challenged and it lost. People made big claims but the cage doesn't lie, you either have it or you dont.
Nowadays people are more knowledgeable and more realistic when it comes to martial arts, no more believing people's stories and movies. The deadly warrior from the East myth is shattered. Today people want proof of a style's effectiveness.

[mark]

Today people want proof of a style's effectiveness.

Yes but when your style teaches you to take away the eyes of your opponent, cause such trauma as to cause their heart to stop or restrict the flow of blood to the brain, crush a knee or elbow …. How do you prove that in the ring?

The whole mentality of the UFC ring goes agents the principles and beliefs of Kung Fu people – for conflict, seek only to survive.

When Sifu Lam closed the kids school, I needed another school for my son and I started looking around. Frank Shamrock’s school is close enough to my home that my son could ride his bike there. When I went inside, I looked at all the bare chested, high testosterone Neanderthals, chuckled to my self then walked out. A legitimate school? Sure but it is not in my mindset and not what I wanted for my son.

[MMAisajoke]

@tehbronco

Don't you realize that "MMA" is just another fad. Watch in ten years or less there will be another MA that will be the new fad. "MMA" is nothing special, it's not that difficult to defend against the attacks. Anyone that observes how an MMA fighter, fights can easily figure out counters themselves. Wake up man, MMA is not the end all fighting style.

[NJM]

@tehbronco

Are you that naive? Don't you realize that "MMA" is just another fad. Watch in ten years or less there will be another MA that will be the new fad. "MMA" is nothing special, it's not that difficult to defend against the attacks. Anyone that observes how an MMA fighter, fights can easily figure out counters themselves. Wake up man, MMA is not the end all fighting style.

Hey buddy, calm down. We don't need the personal attacks here.

[MMAisajoke]

@tehbronco

Are you that naive? Don't you realize that "MMA" is just another fad. Watch in ten years or less there will be another MA that will be the new fad. "MMA" is nothing special, it's not that difficult to defend against the attacks. Anyone that observes how an MMA fighter, fights can easily figure out counters themselves. Wake up man, MMA is not the end all fighting style.

Hey buddy, calm down. We don't need the personal attacks here.

Sorry, I'll edit it.

[TehBronco]

@tehbronco

Don't you realize that "MMA" is just another fad. Watch in ten years or less there will be another MA that will be the new fad. "MMA" is nothing special, it's not that difficult to defend against the attacks. Anyone that observes how an MMA fighter, fights can easily figure out counters themselves. Wake up man, MMA is not the end all fighting style.

Hmmm...John?
Anyway I hope you realize just how much you sound like John Springer. Your user name resembles what he used to use, names like Smashmmafags or BJJisGay. You posted something that you got reprimanded for...John's style. And from what you're saying you seem to think like him too.
All that I have to say to you is that talk is cheap. John filled the internet with assertions like yours, managed to intimidate and get "respect" due to his background, size/conditioning and his dark and twisted mind. All until one sunny day when he crossed the line in a parking lot... he got taken down and ground and pounded by a BJJ newbie who is also a drug addict.
Point is, prove it or else you're just blowing smoke.
Now from a more rational perspective, you couldn't be more wrong. You either don't have a lot of experience in the martial arts or you just live in a bubble. All sane, rational and mature Kung Fu people have a healthy respect for MMA and what it can do. As a fighting style it's very direct and it gets the job done, there's no arguing about that.
As Kung Fu people we are more interested in talking about Kung Fu, how it is seen and how it would fare against the current MMA establishment.
If I bring up valid points it's not to discredit KF, I think that these are issues that we need to address and respond to rationally otherwise we're just dodging the issue. I'm not interested in personal conflict with you, if you would like to get some of that then just visit Bullshido.net, they got plenty for you. Let's stick too discussing ideas, concepts etc.