The Next Generation

by **ogrelee** on Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:53 pm

Well, I took the plunge and rejoined the local mixed kung fu kwoon. It's technically a Leung Shum Ying Jow Pai school, but the Sifu (Who is an excellent teacher) also teaches some of the other things he's been privvy to, like San Soo and Shaolin.

I actually joined because my sister said she wanted to check out a kung fu school with the clan, and I suggested two of the local schools. One I crossed hands with the students of, and this one the one I attended. I said I'd join with the kids with the family plan.

These kids are green belts in Washin-ryu, and they were sweating bullets at the end of the introductory class. One of the first forms he teaches is Shao Hong Chuan. He asked one of the intro belts to show the first form, I chuckled and stepped back. He was very clean and did a great job of it, and they were blown away. The form they teach is a short version, but it's complete. The washin kata are all the same at the white and yellow belt, but for instance with an upper punch instead of a lower punch. The stepping is all the same just changed blocks and punches. The kata are lame, frankly. Imagine doing the same Katas for two belt levels. "Oh, they're different, see this one uses all upper punches, and this one uses all lower punches."

Well, Eagle claw here I come.

by **NJM** on Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:57 pm

Glad to see you found a good school, Ogre.

Are you going to compete in Sanshou now?

by **TehBronco** on Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:24 pm

Sounds good. I'm really not that big on forms, they have their place but they shouldn't be such a big part of training. Grandmaster Dave Lacey said they didn't have time to practice forms back in the day in Hong Kong, they were too busy learning how to fight. In modern schools it's the other way around.
I'd rather spar, do conditioning, two man sensitivity drills etc
I'm just curious if they practice any kind of hard sparring at this school.

by **ogrelee** on Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:18 am

Glad to see you found a good school, Ogre.

Are you going to compete in Sanshou now?

My competition days ended the first time I injured my back. Multiple sprains and two herniated discs later I'm lucky I can still practice kung fu at all. Honestly? I hope that I can eventually get my back fixed enough to at least do forms competition. I hold no confidence in my ability to compete in today's arena even if I got my back fixed. I'd still only be at around 80% tops, if I were lucky. NJM, it really bums me out that I lost so much of my ability due to my own stupid ego. Maybe Some day I'll be able to do that, but I'll be old and gray by then, and only if science advances that far. I'm seriously considering the surgery now. I hear the advancements they've made are incredible. But, Am I willing to Risk totally losing the ability to practice if the surgery goes wrong? It's a hard decision. :cry:

Then, there's the cost. :roll:

TB, I once felt that my forms were just dances (influenced young mind by the jkd school). And now that I understand the purpose, I'm kicking myself wracking my memory trying to rebuild forms I learned 20 years ago. I feel that I fell into a trap of ignorance that many jkd guys fell into, and essentially lost the very arts I was trying to master. Aftyer all, the techniques of every style are preserved in the forms. Without them, you have no catalog or style, just base science. Don't be fooled by that idea, it's wrong and will leave you with regrets.

by **TehBronco** on Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:34 am

ogrelee wrote:TB, I once felt that my forms were just dances (influenced young mind by the jkd school). And now that I understand the purpose, I'm kicking myself wracking my memory trying to rebuild forms I learned 20 years ago. I feel that I fell into a trap of ignorance that many jkd guys fell into, and essentially lost the very arts I was trying to master. Aftyer all, the techniques of every style are preserved in the forms. Without them, you have no catalog or style, just base science. Don't be fooled by that idea, it's wrong and will leave you with regrets.

Could you please elaborate on this some more? I'm not looking for an argument I just want to know what makes you say that forms are so important. I'm not saying no, maybe I am wrong and I just don't see it because of my lack of experience.
I just see them like you said, a catalog of techniques, none of which you will execute perfectly in a fight anyway. Do you feel that someone who mainly trains to fight should deddicate a good part of their time to doing forms?

by **LittleBrother** on Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:12 pm

Not trying to answer for ogrelee but, Bronco you have answered your own question with your post in the "Tiger/Crain Form" thread. If you watch the video you posted again, at the 3 min mark the narrator explains the importance of forms. It is the best way to pass on the knowledge of an art to future generations. To keep an art alive.

by **TehBronco** on Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:57 pm

LittleBrother wrote:Not trying to answer for ogrelee but, Bronco you have answered your own question with your post in the "Tiger/Crain Form" thread. If you watch the video you posted again, at the 3 min mark the narrator explains the importance of forms. It is the best way to pass on the knowledge of an art to future generations. To keep an art alive.

Yes, that's very true. I understand forms being trained as an artform and maintained fresh and sharp so as to pass on the art to another generation. However you do not need to train them even half as much as we do in modern KF schools today to accomplish that purpose.
What I am asking Ogre is if he thinks that forms will help you be a better fighter and if one is training exclusively for fighting should forms be a part of his regimen.

by **ogrelee** on Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:38 pm

Yes, that's very true. I understand forms being trained as an artform and maintained fresh and sharp so as to pass on the art to another generation. However you do not need to train them even half as much as we do in modern KF schools today to accomplish that purpose.
What I am asking Ogre is if he thinks that forms will help you be a better fighter and if one is training exclusively for fighting should forms be a part of his regimen.

Actually, I think the opposite is true concerning how we use our forms in most schools these days. Making your forms look pretty should be secondary to actually studying them and breaking them down, though. The deeped techniques require some work to actually interpret. As an example, one of the guys I worked out with traded me some shaolin and Tai chi qigong for my praying mantis and CLF forms. The first move in the Mantis form looks like a flourish, and he cut it out. I explained that the mantis style uses sticking and plucking movements to grapple and perform chin na, and the flourish in the very beginning was to represent a required skill for mastery of the style, none other than the mother son hand technique. I then showed him by executing a cross arm chin na into an elbow levered throw. He was amazed. I asked him how much of the useless stuff he took out of his other forms. :lol:

We do forms , but more often than not, we don't study them.

Not only that, but when you do a form properly you should be fighting an opponent using the form. Your techniques should be against an imaginary assailant that wants to kill you- dead. If you have a hard time imagining a punch as deadly, put a knife in your opponent's hand. If you do them properly they should most certainly help your fighting skills.

That said, there is no replacing drills, and sparring with real opponents. But what do you spar with? A punch kick punch combo? Is that what we practice so hard to achieve? Or do we aim for the really difficult to master techniques knowing that we'll master at least a few of the intermediate techniques? And those intermediate techniques, where do we learn them? By going back through our forms and studying them step by step. Without our forms we have no more than a fancy footwork boxer, they truly are the foundation of martial art rather than just fighting. Here, we can punch, kick, grapple and throw with the best of them. Granted we don't play well, but who's playing?

by **RadKi Combat** on Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:53 pm

Forms are the core of the art just as ice is the core of the ice Queen's heart. Without ice she would die and so it is with forms and kung fu and kata and karate and patterns and taekwondo and kata and judo. The best forms are freestyle chi gatherings, like rapid palm blocking generating a build up of ki. The horse stance is so called because you are the horse not because you are sitting as if riding one. Be the horse and much will be unlocked.

by **NJM** on Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:00 pm

RadKi Combat wrote:Forms are the core of the art just as ice is the core of the ice Queen's heart. Without ice she would die and so it is with forms and kung fu and kata and karate and patterns and taekwondo and kata and judo. The best forms are freestyle chi gatherings, like rapid palm blocking generating a build up of ki. The horse stance is so called because you are the horse not because you are sitting as if riding one. Be the horse and much will be unlocked.

Who is the Ice Queen?

by **RadKi Combat** on Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:07 pm

http://media.putfile.com/InuYasha---Kag ... en--naruto

by **NJM** on Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:25 pm

Alright, I think we can safely say this is a troll.

by **TehBronco** on Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:47 pm

NJM wrote:Alright, I think we can safely say this is a troll.

No kidding...

by **Uchi_deshi** on Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:54 pm

and i still say remove him...and if he comes back doing it again then remove him until he understands what he is doing is wrong...

he is not going to stop...

by **NJM** on Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:31 pm

I can tolerate spamming.
I can tolerate blatant falsehoods.
I can tolerate impersonators.

I can tolerate these things, but I do not enjoy them.

There is one thing that I refuse to tolerate.

This is a board about the martial arts. Do not talk about anime here.

The Next Generation

The Next Generation

Who is online