Chinese Weapons vs. others

[mark]

How does anyone thing that a Chinese Sword (Gim or Dao) would match agents another sword and style such as a European Rapier or a Japanese Kantana? The skills of each martial artist being equal ofcoarse.

[Dragonpiper]

In my openion I think that the gim sword would be better than both the rapier and katana. I can't speak w/ personal expereance, but it just seems that with the Japianese sword styles they don't look right, it's not the sword but the style with it. Maybe i'm wrong, but like with gim swords a person can move a little better. The movements are more natural. As far as the rapier I think that they are closely matched. Once again I can't judge from personal expereance.

[mark]

Although I have many years of forma training with the Chinese weapons and none with the Japanese Katana, would bet that, all things being equal, the Katana would win out.

[NorthernShaolin]

It is recorded that the Japanese challenaged the Cinese to a sword dual in the 1920's. Kuo Fung Chih and Li Ching Lin, who at that time was regarded as China's greatest swordman, went to Japan. Both men took on all challengers and won their matches. The Japanese knowledged that the Chinese Swordmanship was indeed superior to the Japanese Swordmanship.

[mark]

NorthernShaolin
Were these guys using g a Gim or a Dao?

[templewarrior]

A co-worker and I had this same discussion. He is a big believer in the katana and feels it is the perfect sword. Combat steel of course! Also who were the Japanese swordsmen for this duel?

[NorthernShaolin]

mark,

They used Gims.

templewarrior,

Sorry but I do not recall the names of the Japanese fighters. I was only interested in the guys who won. Li Ching Lin was a big name that ranks among other famous internal CMA like Sun Lu Tang, Fu Chen Sheng, and Yang Chang Fu. He was famous for his Wu Tang Swordmanship u til his death in 1931.

[hasayfu]

NorthernShaolin, Li Ching Lin is truely a great swordsman.

I agree that the concepts of the Gim can out match a straight forward weapon like the katana.

It's much like saying TaiChi concepts can neutralize hardline Karate. The Gim will be there then not be there. That said, one must be high level to use this weapon. That's why it's reserved for the most advanced. Much like a basic Karate-ka can pummel a medium level taichi player.

[Dragonpiper]

I fell that the two can't be compared. Eveyone may be right. But as Chinese MArtist I fell that any decision I make is with bias. I am getting ready to start Kulan mountian straight sword and untill I can gather the knowledge from it and A Japanese sword style. I will have to say it isn't the sword but the man weilding it.

[Rodney N]

Hi Mark,
I can tell you that the European weapons do quite well. I practice the Chinese saber set that I learned with Onassis, Stephen, Khan, and ford with my early medieval broadsword. It is 28 inches long of blade with a wide shallow fuller running the full length, one handed grip, 2" wide at the hilt, 1.5" wide near the tip and weighs 2 pounds. The point of balance is at 5.5 inches from the hand, so it has a prominant blade feel, though the overall lightness and dynamic balance makes it move well when in motion. Kind of like a light sports car without power steering. Feels great when you get it going.

Being a sharp sword, I train with care so as not to take anything off that I want to keep, but the Chinese set works flawlessly with a sharp blade. I can tell that the form came from a time when swords were used and used sharp. The early medieval sword is a cut oriented sword that has some limited thrusting ability (like the dao) though since it is on the lighter side, I can make gim-like movements with it. The Gim as we know it is closest to an early renaissance longsword of the lighter civilian type. Again more or less 2 pounds with a longer hilt, 5-6 inch handle and a 30-34 inch blade length and flattened diamond cross section... Sounds like a gim, eh...

As I train with this sword, I only have to modify where the left hand goes, since I can not make the supporting hand motions on the "dull spine" of the sabre, since I'm using what is essentially a wide gim.

The sword itself is through hardened to about 54 Rc. and pretty typical of European swords. The Chnese blades had differential temperings with blade spines in the low 50s Rc and edges in the low to mid 60s Rc. This is very advanced bladesmithing though arguably overkill for what is "needed" for battle, I think the biggest difference in the martial art itself, is the fact that the European style would be entirely external. The footwork of some of the Medieval masters like Leichtenauer and Talhoffer looks similar to Kung fu with bow stances, horse stances and even some twist stance like movements. So a good swordsman with a sword could likely fight againse a chinese martial artist wielding a saber. The Gim style with it's feel and internal connectedness I think would surpass a European fencer only in the fact that they would (or should) sense where the opponant's energy is and counter better. The finest fancing masters of the middle ages or renaissance *might* have developed an internal aspect to their art, though it is not documented anywhere I have heard of. but when one trains and meditates and applies constant concentration to an art, who knows what can happen. The European moves of swordplay were quite subtle at their best. so It may come down to the skill or luck of the fighter. It would b interesting to get a good gim practicioner and a good fencer in the Talhoffer style to sparr with wooden wasters and see how it works out.

Take care,

[PhoTai]

Rodney, you are right in that I too believe the most interesting match up to be between euro fencing (pardon my ignorance of style particulars, probably as vague as saying Asian sword fighting) vs. Gim (jian). I have experience in japanese sword play, and escrima (kris), and as of more recent Dao and gim. I have no European trainin. Although, it is easy to see how it deserves some respect.

Euro fencing vs. Chinese gim play is more like two good light middleweight boxers, some nice moves, and exchanges. There is a contest going on of skill, technique, and strategy. Someone could win with one punch, bust most likely (skill being equal as Mark qualified) it will most likely be the accumulation of best exchanges. Whereas a middle (gim) vs. heavy weight (Euro-Broadsword) (not that katana is that clumsy at all), the real question is, "does the heavy bomb land end it, or is it agility/finesse that wins?". It could be either way, different day. Right?

[Rodney N]

European swordsmanship is an interesting one, in that the Europeans seemed to have simply taken up new techniques and wepons and allowed older disciplines to fade away. The Longbow for example was a mainstay of the battle field, but when reliable muskets came on the scene, the longbow melted into history. The same with what I will call the Borad-Sword. meaning anything prior to the rapier. Many think that sophisticated European swordplay was invented in the French and Italian Renaissance with the advent of the rapier fencing styles. Well, the rapier was primarily a civilian weapon which developed into the small sword (a shorter thrust oriented version. The swordplay of these weapons developed into what we call sport fencing as done in the olympic games.etc. The use of the broad cutting or cut and thrust type of battlfield swords waned in popularity as the saber became more popular for European armies. The straight two edged sword was the mainstay for battlefield swordsmanship from the late Viking period until the 1600s. The size varied in that lighter one handed cutting swords like my early medieval style sword weigh around 2-2.5 pounds. A early medieval longsword (2 hand able) with a 6-8 inc grip would weigh 2.5 to 3.5 pounds. and the largest usable swords as carried by the German and Swiss mercinary troops the land knights (Landsknechte) were large two handed great swords, the heaviest of which were 4-7 pounds perhaps 8 on the outside. Thats a sword with a 40 inch blade and 10 inch grip...

Like in China, though, the spear or polearm or long ax was the most common weapon in Europe. Swords were rather expensive and used as a backup weapon. If you see images of General Guan holding his Guan Do, he is often shown with his gim at his side.

Happy studying

[Russ]

I think if untrained people picked up each weapon then the Katana would win out.
If medium trained people picked up the weapon then the Rapier would win out.
In the event of masters using these weapons I have faith in the Gim.
A Gim requires alot more understanding and training to know how to use, but once that is accomplished it is faster than a Katana and has more uses than a Rapier. Of course I am not a Master so this is just my own speculation.

[JamesC]

This is a hard question...

I don't really know. I might say that a Gim would more than likely win...

Though if a Katana landed one cut, you are pretty much done with.

[Scimitar]

I'd venture to say that if two opponents had equivalent knowledge of their weapon and the strategies involved in their use, that victory would boil down to specific encounter experience, weapon quality, and luck.

I've witnessed someone with a katana beat a gim, and vise-versa.

I've witnessed someone with a rapier beat a broadsword, and vise-versa.

There are no superior styles, only superior warriors.

It's always interesting to note big-name matches in history and base an opinion of superiority on that outcome, but what about the masters who avoid that spotlight? Odds are there's somebody out there that can beat the "best" that nobody has ever heard of.

As for the european swordstyles, you have to remember that even though a lot of that knowledge was lost or modified for sport when swords left the battlefield, there were hundreds of schools dedicated to the art of fencing at that time and fighters who were masters in every sense of the word. Some of this knowledge was recorded by the instructors of that period, and there is currently a massive surge in interest in rediscovering these techniques through study of these manuscripts and also experimentation.

I've found that most people have a poor image of european-based fighting systems due primarily to the misrepresentations found in popular media, most of which is completely inaccurate, ie edge to edge fighting, improper distance and movement, using piercing rapiers as cut and thrust weapons, etc.

So the question really isn't that simple or fair and is bound to be answered with some amount of bias.

My personal preferences include both the dao and the katana, and I tend to use my katana with a blend of both chinese, japanese, and european flavors. It doesn't mean that my way is better, that's just what works for me.

Interesting discussion guys. Good to see this forum has recovered after that crash a while back